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Archive of the Special Education Message Board Folder:
ADD/ADHD - School Issues - 2
April 2, 1997 - November 27, 1997
FILE NAME:  addsch03.txt
424 messages - 143 Pages

SUBJECT:    Re:tools for change      Date:  97-04-02 11:24:31 EST
From:  FXIRISH

I have been involved in Special and General Education for 25 years, as a
teacher and an administrator.  I have observed the many changes and lack of
change during this time.  The thing that I have found to be the most help has
been our Pupil Assistance Committee that meets once a week during the school
year.  It consists of school staff (Including a CST representative) who
review the request by a classroom teacher for assistance with a student.  The
issues addressed have been presented in the many postings on this bulletin
board, including ADD/ADHD and Auditory Processing difficulties.  The process
allows teachers to seek advise from colleagues in a supportive environment.
We began our meetings five years ago, and review approximately 60-70 students
a year.  I am extremely pleased by the process, and enjoy the opportunity to
serve with the staff in this capacity.  In my opinion, it is an excellent
example of a need not always addressed in education....ongoing staff
development.  Our PAC meetings have helped to modify the concerns of both
general and special education staff regarding the approaches to be taken with
students having special needs.  We have 27 students in our building involved
in the "inclusive model" for delivery of services.  We suffered through the
growing pains when we first started, but have come a long way in making the
most of the resorces in our building to assist all of our students.

SUBJECT:
Re:ADD child with auditory p     Date:  97-04-04 14:15:55 EST
From:  HWG43

Hi my child has the same problem and we had a voice tape done where he spoke
into a recorder for ten minutes with no one interrupting his voice. it
doesn't matter what they say of if they count. it is then processed to see
what sounds that they are processing in the brain. they may be hearing
everything fine but the brain doesn't recognize it. this is not a hearing
problem, but a brain funtioning problem. your child will only speak with the
sounds that the brain is recognizing and that is how they can tell from the
voice tape they make. there is a company that makes cd's for this particular
problem. the person listens to the cd's and it actually retrains an undamaged
portion of the brain to take over. this is done without drugs, just daily
listening. there is a group in utah that is called nacd..national academy for
childhood developement that works on any and all funtions wheiter it is body
functions or brain functions. we have started on the home school iep that
they set up just for my sons many special problems, vision also included
along the fact he doesn't feel pain. if you are intrested let me know at
[e-mail] and i will get the info for you. this has been great for us but
they also work with after school programs as well.
hope that this helps
jilly bean

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-04-04 14:21:13 EST
From:  HWG43

have you tried locating a lawyer that has a handicapped child of their own,
this you can probley find through one of the advocacy centers. the thing to
do is ask out right if they know someone like this. we have an agency here
called families helping families and i took one of them with me to an iep
meeting and it makes the school nervouse because they know these people know
all of the laws even if you don't. in your case they might even be better
than a lawyer since that is their only concern and a lawyer is so much
deversified. try it and find if it helps
good luck.
jilly bean

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-04-04 14:33:47 EST
From:  HWG43

dear coolinmist,
there is a group in salt lake city, utah that test all areas of your childs
abilities and then start him on a program that is designed just for him and
it works with any problems and i'm a testament to that.i have a 13 yr old son
who has been in school since he was 3 in special ed situations. he was in the
8th grade this year and i took him out of the school system due to the fact
the nurse there would either not give him his blood line meds or would change
up the time it was given. this happened 2 years in a row and i got fed up. we
went to utah and started their program in jan of this yeat. my son could not
read, write, count, tie his shoes ect. after going to utah i found out why.
he has hyper perrifial vision meaning that the things he sees and
retains(photo memory) is only seen through the outer part of the eye. this is
a malfunction of the brain not his eyes. he would lay down on the table to
see what he was writting. he also has an audio problem processing certain
sounds, again not due to poor hearing but processing problems. he also
doesn't feel pain at all and is very speech delayed and fine moter skills
delayed.
since jan he is now counting to 20, knows his upper case letters and has
almost finished his lower case letters, he is begging to recognise words in
different surrounds. he also for the first time in his life(he has had many
surgeries) felt an ear infection and a skined elbow so we are making some
progress. the thinis no matter how good his teacher was she could never
address all of his problems because he wasn't her only student but we didn't
even know half of these problems were there. if this helps and you would like
more info e-mail me at [e-mail]
jilly bean

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-04-04 14:40:20 EST
From:  HWG43

hi,
we have found a drug called ADDerall that has helped tremendously with our
son. his frustration level is so much better and he is not near as angery and
we had tried ritalin for 9 yrs. it worked so well for him that my husband and
i are both on it and our family is so much happier. we seem to be enjoying
things so much more just because we aren't so frusterated. if you are
concerened about meds ghis dr. to let you try it yourself. the ritalin always
kicked me like a horse but the adderall is smooth and i never FEEL it
working. i take one of whatever the dr. orders to see what effct it has on me
first. i know that meds effect different people different ways but it sure
makes me feel better about what he is taking.
hope that this helps
jilly bean

SUBJECT:    Psychotropic meds for ADHD     Date:  97-04-04 19:28:53 EST
From:  Hanna85023

Research and opinion papers have been published regarding the effectiveness
and appropriate role and use of medication with handicapped persons.  One
area receiving considerable attention is th use of psychotropic medication
for individuals with ADHD.  I would like to 1.) discuss research literature
pertaining to the effectiveness of this type of medication; 2.) discuss the
"opinion " literature pertaining to the appropriate use of this med; and 3)
discuss similarities and differences across "research" and "opinion and
perhaps suggest recommendations for the appropriate use of this
medication.

SUBJECT:    Teacher info     Date:  97-04-05 19:35:47 EST
From:  PWardwell

I am in college right now and am studying to be a special education teacher
working with students in the LD and ADD\ADHD field.  Does anyone have any
attention getting expertise that might help me in the future.  Any ideas are
greatfully welcome.
Tracy Wardwell
KSU
[e-mail]

SUBJECT:    ADD     Date:  97-04-06 09:27:09 EST
From:  IndyLar42

Hi! My friend's son had ADD and she's trying to find a summer camp for kids
with the same situation.  Does anyone know of any around the Midwest???
Thanks for the help!!! Have a fantabulous day!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD child with
auditory p     Date:  97-04-06 11:02:39 EST
From:  SusanS29

"your child will only speak with the sounds that the brain is recognizing and
that is how they can tell from the voice tape they make. "

This just isn't true... I'm sorry.

ADD/ADHD interferes with the very first stage of memory, often called "Active
Working Memory." this is the little "clipboard" that allows you to hold on to
a phone number you looked up just long enough to dial.

It also allows you to hang on to information you've just received long enough
to manipulate it and decide where to store it. So it's an important part of
"sounding out word" and of doing multi-step math problems, two areas where
ADD can have a big impact.

it can interfere with following and participating in discussions.

It can cause us to not hang on to everything our brain is capable of
processing auditorily. In other words, ADD can keep the "input" from being
remembered well enough to put it into that tape recorder.

This test would mean *either* auditory processing problems* or difficulty
with Active Working Memory (most testers would just say "short term auditory
memory, but short-term is viewed as the next stage in memory by many).

This test cannot discriminate whether it's ADD, auditory, or both.

SUBJECT:
Re:Psychotropic meds for ADHD     Date:  97-04-06 11:05:34 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I would like to 1.) discuss research literature pertaining to the
effectiveness of this type of medication"

Your problem is that few here have read the research and evaluated it
first-hand. Few have access to it, and it does take certain skills which most
people don't have to be able to tell whether the research was
well-controlled, etc.

That's why I am leading an effort to form a new organization, one that will
help parents out in this "Age of Pseudo-Information."

The name is "T.R.I.ADD" for "Trends in Research Investigating Attention
Deficit Disorders." Our working motto is "The truth... where ever it leads."

Our only standard will be that the information we collect is accurate. If
that knocks down beliefs we all held previously, so be it. We will hold
*extremely* rigorous standards for proof. However, we do not intend to
compete in any way with any currently- established organization. We think
that more organizations will give all more credibility. We don't expect, for
instance, to hold workshops or conferences.

Any parent or adult with ADD will be able to come to us and get unbiased
information, because we will have no emotional investment in anything except
accuracy.

If you're interested in joining us, give me an e-mail.

For myself I simply don't concern myself with "opinion" in the literature. In
my experience it always reveals more bias than science... which is the reason
we need the research.

SUBJECT:    Moms Online and ADHD     Date:  97-04-07 06:56:10 EST
From:  SPCHRGM

Just in case you all don't know, Moms Online(Keyword:Moms Online) is tackling
the ADHD topic this week. They have as part of the post, books about ADHD,
ADHD Mailing Lists and Newsgroups, and a listing of ADHD organizations. Go to
Keyword:Moms Online, then to Vital Resources, then to Prime Sources. They
also have a section called"House Call" with a doctor describing ADHD...hope
this isn't old news...SPCHRGM

SUBJECT:    Re:Moms Online and ADHD     Date:  97-04-07 08:20:19 EST
From:  SusanS29

SPC it's not "old news" as much as "Where in the heck is it?"

I just tried it and couldn't find anything called "Vital Resources."

SUBJECT:
Re:Moms Online and ADHD     Date:  97-04-07 18:58:22 EST
From:  SPCHRGM

Okay, on our AOL2.5 you still keword to Moms online, then the page will come
up "MomsOnline", one of the Blue highlighted headings was
Limelight-topic"ADD/ADHD explored in this weeks Vital Resources...", click on
this and the page called Vital Resources will come up...does this help? I'll
try it with 3.0 also...SPCHRGM

SUBJECT:    Re:Moms Online and ADHD     Date:  97-04-07 23:25:02 EST
From:  SusanS29

Those using Macintosh 2.7 will not see those options, unfortunately.

Also unfortunately there are good reasons for not upgrading to Macintosh
3.0... sigh.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD child with auditory p     Date:  97-04-08 22:07:58 EST
From:  HWG43

Susan, i believe that you are right about the audio problem. the important
thing that they explained to me was that it was not a HEARING problem, but a
processing of info. my child has very little short term memory but has a
photographic long term memory having to do with his perpheral vision, so i
know that they are connected some how.thanks,
jill

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD     Date:  97-04-08 22:21:11 EST
From:  HWG43

mama999, this is jill. you sent me some email and i was sending you back the
info that you requested when the phone rang and wiped out everything
including your address. i hope that by chance you will read this and get back
in touch if i can help with anything else. the group that is hosting the
behavior mod class is called families helping families. i do not know if it
is a state group but it is free to anyone that has a disability as far as
many of the things that they offer. they will go with you to you iep meeting,
help with software and other types of equipment that might be needed
depending on your childs limitations. anyway the lady that is the one to talk
to is lori emmons and her number is 1-318-797-5346. i really believe that it
would be worth the phone call if she could put you in touch with something
like that where you are. the clinic that my son takes speec, and ot at are
fixing to start an entire clinic on add and adhd, i can hardly wait.
i'm real sorry that i lost your address but if you need any thing else please
just drop a line to jill at [e-mail].
jill

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD child with auditory p     Date:  97-04-09 21:43:58 EST
From:  SusanS29

"the important thing that they explained to me was that it was not a HEARING
problem, but a processing of info."

Yes... that's right. Lots of times kids who are very weak in some areas will
compensate by using another area, which then develops perhaps more than it
would have otherwise. Sort of like the blind person whose hearing becomes
more acute.

SUBJECT:    ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-10 22:08:11 EST
From:  EBndChrkee

Being a first year SED teacher, I have become quite concerned in noticing how
many of my students are categorized SED when they are severe ADD/ADHD
students.  In my situation, the other elementary principals and counselors
have categorized the students prior to my ever observing the students.  Which
is a second issue, when is it an infringement on a students rights for my
involvement/observation to be initiated?   A few were served in the LD
program prior to their SED placement and did better behaviorally, but are
still severely behind academically.  Along with the ADD/ADHD most were
identified in 4th or 5th grade.  Not all of my students are behind
academically, 2 out of 7 of this years 5th graders have gifted IQ's, but I
have 6 4th graders and each one of the six are behind academically.  Sorry
this is so long, but I am new to this and am just seeking help.

SUBJECT:
Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-11 20:03:57 EST
From:  Parsons4U

They may be conduct disorder rather than SED.  Don't forget--if you can help
them meet their goals and there behavior is workable--the placement can be
changed.  SED should only be reserved for the most severe.

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling
all advocates...     Date:  97-04-11 20:27:09 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

As an attorney who has a fair degree of experience in IDEA/504 advocacy/due
process heairng, my understanding of 1215 of IDEA allows only for "reasonable
attorney fees".  Not advocate fees.  In fact, it has been my experience that
in most cases, even attorneys who represent parents at IEPC meetings have a
hard time geeting fees for this part of the process.

It can be done, but it is complicated.

Worse yet, the current IDEA re-authorization will likely limit the
possibility of attorney fees unless the parent prevails on "all" issues.


SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-11 21:02:33 EST
From:  TrixieG459

<<SED should only be reserved for the most severe.>>

This may be a stupid question.  What is SED? Is this like Special ED?

SUBJECT:
Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-12 09:42:29 EST
From:  CAMTHEMAN

<<What is SED?>>
Severely Emotionally Disabled

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-12 13:46:46 EST
From:  MarRigby

In order to qualify under the SED label, the emotional issues have to have a
serious impact on his/her ability to learn in the classroom. If his/her
emotional problems are not interfering with their ability to produce
work/achievement at their appropriate ability level, then they can't be
classified as emotionally disturbed. The other two conditions that must be
met are severity and duration. It must be severe enough to be present in more
than one environment (school, home, afterschool activities), and has to have
been occuring for a long period of time (that's the part that's fuzzy to me.
I think that should be more specifically defined). So if you don't think some
students in your class meet those criteria, you should hold a new meeting.
However, be forewarned, in some states/communities that used the label
socially and emotionally maladjusted (SEM), the label can remain until their
triennial reviews. When the student has been given a new psychological and
educational evaluation, the appropriate label, if any can be given.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-12 20:06:18 EST
From:  Ratatat

<However, be forewarned, in some states/communities that used the label
socially and emotionally maladjusted (SEM), the label can remain until their
triennial reviews. When the student has been given a new psychological and
educational evaluation, the appropriate label, if any can be given.>

There is a school district close to me that has an "old fashioned" director
of special education.  The district does not have any resource rooms.  Kids
are either in the classrooms with some accommodations, or they are in
classrooms in a special building.  In this director's eye's the special
building houses the special education program.  In reality, only children
with a "label" of SED can be placed there.

I know of a young child with a gifted IQ and severe ADHD.  The principal was
having this child spend up to 5 hours a day in the office because the teacher
couldn't handle him in the classroom.  When the parent sought support she was
told that as far as the child's ADHD is concerned that "they don't have a
program for it."  Then, they told her they were doing the best they could.

She pushed and pushed, yet not really understanding the varieties of IDEA.
They finally agreed to provide her child with special supports but told her
that in order to do that they'd have to classify him SED and put him in the
"special school."  After almost a year of what he'd been going through at
school he was emotionally effected - but this kid is NOT emotionally
impaired.

Anyway, just after Christmas they placed this child in the SED program.  They
told her that their main objective is to just work on his behavior problems.
They told her that with his IQ they really didn't need to worry about
academics for at least two or three years before he'd start to fall behind.

Unfortunately, I hear so much that I can't say that this saga is rare.  It's
not terribly common, but it's not rare.

And, naturally, its the scenario that occurred to me when you mentioned the
children you are teaching who have been classified SED because of their ADHD
behaviors and utter lack of needed and appropriate supports in the classroom.

Sad.  Very sad. Also, very illegal.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-13 19:24:15 EST
From:  SusanS29

"In order to qualify under the SED label, the emotional issues have to have a
serious impact on his/her ability to learn in the classroom. If his/her
emotional problems are not interfering with their ability to produce
work/achievement at their appropriate ability level, then they can't be
classified as emotionally disturbed."

That isn't true where I am. In Missouri the label is "behaviorally
disordered," not SED, and students working up to their potential can be
placed if their behavior severely interferes with other students' education.

Each state sets its own terms and its own diagnostic criteria. There are some
federal restrictions but also a lot of latitude.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED
category      Date:  97-04-13 22:41:35 EST
From:  MarRigby

Susan:
I think that our state has decided to abide by the federal definition of SED,
and has told our city that the label of Socially and Emotionally Maladjusted
cannot be used anywhere in the state. We do not have a label called
behaviorally disordered, which I think would have been synonomous with our
SEM label. We do have alternate ed. programs for behaviorally disorded
students, but they are not Sp. Ed. programs, and I don't think they exist
until the middle school level.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-14 21:09:52 EST
From:  SusanS29

"We do not have a label called behaviorally disordered, which I think would
have been synonomous with our SEM label."

No, it's not. It's behaviorally disorders, which isn't the same as "socially
maladjusted." Behaviorally disordered is accepted by the federal government
also, but socially maladjested is not.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-04-14 22:05:10 EST
From:  Beeuv

Yes, I hope that you can contact PBS Video series and purchase the video by
Dr. Robert
Brooks entitled "Look What You've Done"  Please ask for the video that
addresses "parents"
This is imperative.  I also urge you to write to Children and Adults With
Learning Disabilities and ask for Dr. Brooks address.  Also phone
1-800-545-5583 and ask for The Order Blank for
The Chaning Face of ADD Challenges and Opportunities Cassette Tape #96-1605
entitled "So What Do the Letters in the Word "RESILIENCE" Stand For? Please
also order the cassette tape entitled #96-1505 Helping Adolescents with ADD
Succeed in School and literally "give" it to his teacher to listen to.  Also
[please, please order the tape ##96-1512 Training Parents to Help Their Child
Develop Social Skills and lastly, you must order #96-1416 Parent Empowerment:
Accessing Community Resource by Ellen Kosh, R.N.  Lastly, tell your son that
it is not he who is failing in school but the strategies he is being given
that are failing him.  This is something that Dr. Brooks emphasizes and
expounds upon in his video cassette.  Your son is not a failure and he will
be successful with you as his adovocate.  Take breaks from your son, or you
will go crazy lying to yourself about how  "everything is okay" when indeed
it is not.  Be honest with the both of you. and join a CHADD group in your
community but most importantly get your son into a social
skills training group and then the family counseling for you all.  You cannot
afford to think of this as anything but a need to address multi-modal
approaches, otherwise you are fooling yourself and failing him.  Good Luck.
If you do not do anything that I have suggested, please order Dr. Robert
Brooks tape from PBS Videos.  Your local school can give you the 1-800 phone
number or else just call the directory, but please order this tape.

SUBJECT:
Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-04-15 06:31:39 EST
From:  Ratatat

I would concur that just about anything and everything produced by Dr. Brooks
is valuable and reliable.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-15 19:01:32 EST
From:  MarRigby

Susan:
So what are the criteria for being labeled behaviorally disordered? I am
reasonably sure that this Sp. Ed. category does not exist in our state.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-04-15 22:46:36 EST
From:  SusanS29

"So what are the criteria for being labeled behaviorally disordered? I am
reasonably sure that this Sp. Ed. category does not exist in our state."

We use the Deveraux Rating Scale along with Quay Observations, documented
reports of behavior problems, etc. It is of course a judgment call, but one
of the requirements is that we attempt intensive behavior management within
the school before applying such a label.

People don't realize that both the labels and the standards for applying them
can vary considerably from state to state. 50 states, 50 separate sets of
rules.

SUBJECT:    Kumon?     Date:  97-04-17 12:50:15 EST
From:  AlaCoCMA

Has anyone ever heard of the Kumon method of reading and math.  I think its
Japanese.  If so, how do you think it will help an LD/ADHD child in those
areas?  I'm in Northern CA, so I don't know if you have this learning center
where you all live.

Nisha

SUBJECT:    Re:Kumon?     Date:  97-04-17 19:41:35 EST
From:  R u Niz

One of my student participates in a Kumon program twice a week.  From what
she has told me and shown me, I believe it involves intensive drill on basic
math and reading skills.  I think it has helped my student (a severely
disabled, possibly mentally handicapped student) to maintain the basics as we
move into some higher levels of study.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-04-17 20:29:02 EST
From:  Bmavin

RE: Bob Brooks---he's really terrific!

SUBJECT:    web site     Date:  97-04-17 20:31:06 EST
From:  Bmavin

Here's an invitation! Take a look at this web site for advocacy ideas, and
strategies for ADD---

http://members.aol.com/bmavin/stein.htm
Hope it helps!

SUBJECT:    Re:Kumon?     Date:  97-04-18 08:49:56 EST
From:  SusanS29

Kumon provides intensive drills on the basic skills. It might well help a
child who had difficulty with short and/or long-term memory because of that.

Children who have little trouble with the basics but more trouble with the
larger concepts might find it boring. My guess is that -- esp. if you start
young enough -- children with memory problems might actually enjoy it,
because they would recognize that they're learning.

We adults are the same way -- don't you get a "rush" when you've learned
something? Don't you kind of pat yourself on the back? It's instinctive for
kids to learn. The trick is to structure success.

So look at your child's strengths and weaknesses. Don't just go to Kumon
because he's having trouble with math. Figure out if the problem is with
mastering basic skills, memorizing facts, etc. -- and/or hanging on to it
afterwards.

That is, in fact, a very common problem for kids who are LD in math, because
the class moves on. Even when they provide review, it's often not enough
review for these kids.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-04-18 18:08:46 EST
From:  LGilb24634

Thanks so much for the info.  I plan on getting the tapes you suggested.  I'm
looking for anything I can find to help my son. I just recently joined CHADD
but have not received any information as yet.  I will also join the local
CHADD chapter.

I contacted an advocate on Wednesday.  She told me the school system has not
obeyed the laws in dealing with my son.  The advocate has worked with the
lawyer, Peter Wright, who is well known in the ADD field (so I have found
out).  We happen to live just outside the same city this lawyer practices in.
She is going to help me and has given me some things to get started.  We have
scheduled my son for a full educational and psychological evaluation.  I have
sent the school a release form so the advocate can contact them.  I feel like
we're finally starting to go somewhere.  I know we still have a long battle
ahead.

Oh, and by the way, my son is going to go stay with my daughter in another
state for a few days next week before his testing begins.  So I took your
advice and am taking a break!  Thanks!


SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-04-18 21:19:20 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I contacted an advocate on Wednesday.  She told me the school system has not
obeyed the laws in dealing with my son.  The advocate has worked with the
lawyer, Peter Wright, who is well known in the ADD field (so I have found
out). >

Pete Wright is a big darn deal...took a case to the Supreme Court and won.
And knows ADD cold.  He has the greatest system for assessing test and
evaluation scores.  You sound like you are in good hands with an advocate
trained by him.

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-04-18 22:46:12 EST
From:  MFreeze640

I am a parent of a child whom is developmentally delayed and also has ADHD.
My child has been through extensive testing by reg. Pyschologist and
Neuro-Pyschologist who in turn have attended staffings to share their
findings and offer support only to go unappreciated and unwanted.  My husband
and I have been stedfast advocates for all of our childs needs.  We have been
successful in getting him a private Aide and increased therapy times in
school.  It is a never ending battle.  Unfortunately, too many of the
professionals in the education system see us a nuisance. Why can't they
applaude pro-active parents.  We care so much about his education and yet our
ed. prof. seem so disinterested in providing the basics of his IEP.  We
support our professionals and participate in all of our childs activities at
school while also maintaining contact with the Therapist, Education
Consultant, Teacher and School Psychologist.  I know there are others out
there feeling as confused as we are.


SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-04-19 09:03:44 EST
From:  Ratatat

< Unfortunately, too many of the professionals in the education system see us
a nuisance. Why can't they applaude pro-active parents. >

Some schools want parents involved, but only by their rules and limitations.


SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-04-19 17:23:37 EST
From:  SusanS29

"nuisance. Why can't they applaude pro-active parents. >

Some schools want parents involved, but only by their rules and limitations.
"

I agree -- on the other hand -- as a parent/teacher turned advocate -- I have
to say:

Some advocates don't know what they're doing, and do more harm than good --
*for the student.* I have seen it first hand.

A real advocate should be willing to say "My job is to get the best education
for your child, and what you want isn't appropriate for him." Some very angry
parents view advocates as "hired guns," and some advocates act like this.

Not alll... but a lot of schools have had a lot of negative experiences with
advcates, and it hasn't just been because the school didn't want to "do the
right thing."

I've seen advocates try to insist that a retarded child was really learning
disabled and belonged in an LD classroom. I've seen advocates try to insist
that a child had no problem at all when in fact the child had some of the
most severe LD's (and undiagnosed ADD) I'd ever worked with.

There are two sides to every coin, and the truth is that as in many jobs,
some people are much better at it than others.

Why would I say it? I think parents need to shop around pretty carefully for
an advocate. If your child has a learning disability, do you really want an
advocate who knows absolutely nothing about learning disabilities? If your
child is autistic, that advocate had better know a lot about autism.

SUBJECT:
Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-04-19 21:35:51 EST
From:  RhoLaren

Susan,

Thank you for that last post.

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-04-19 22:35:20 EST
From:  Mars000210

I agree with Susan. I went through three advocates before I found one who
knew the system, understood my childrens LD's and the testing.The first three
advocates were nice and well intenitoned, but whose guidance was misquided by
their lack of knowlege of my children's LD's and the proper interventions
needed to make my children sucessfull.  The last advocate I found was
knowlegeable in all the above areas and was also able to explain to me what I
should be doing. She taught me how to be a better advocate, so I would not
have to depend on an advocate forever. Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-04-24 07:38:01 EST
From:  SFranco619

hi!  Just reading through messages and saw yours.  I am a special ed teacher.
I dont know what state you live in, but in ny, the school system MUST provide
the svcs that your son needs.  He sounds like a lovely boy! dont let them
tell you otherwise!  They simply do not want to spend the money necessary to
help him!!!  You should have been given a paper about parent's rights when he
was tested.write me at sfranco619 if you need more info.  Hope this helps.
                                          Shari

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all
advocates...     Date:  97-04-24 10:44:04 EST
From:  KErnhart

Educating individual parents to advocate for their child and then the child
advocating for them selfs is the best way to go.  I have parents asking for
help with their child and always find the student and the parent know best
the needs but inly need to know how to apply the law in the request or
implementation of services.

SUBJECT:    Re:Moms Online and ADHD     Date:  97-04-26 18:38:10 EST
From:  RedSco

okay Susan... did you find it?  (Im a MacAddict too)
I saw it today...
(when I was lookin at entrepreneur moms)

Keyword: Moms Online
Scroll box on right: vital resources
Scroll box on right: prime sources collection

BTW: aol has 3.0.1 now for non-powermacs and for those powermac bugs...
:)

SUBJECT:    ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-04-27 17:06:58 EST
From:  RSegall128

I am a special education teacher in the middle school looking for information
about teaching models and ADD/ADHD students.  The information I recieve will
be going into a paper I am writing for a graduate class.  Any information or
ideas are welcome!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-04-27 19:15:01 EST
From:  RSMama01

Something that really helped my soon im middle school was having a place to
go for time AWAY. He was not a SPED student but he was allowed to go to the
Resource Room for help, regroup time, or just a quiet place to work.  It's
also important to have them on a daily report.  Even in HS I have him take in
a simple form for each period--Grade 1 (completed assignments etc.) to 5 (did
poorly) for task completion, attitude, getting along with others, class
participation.  The teacher only has to initial it and I reward him for 1's
and 2's.  At least this way I know what's going on at school.  Don't forget
the Hawthorne Materials as a Resource.  There's so much good stuff out there
now.  I'm a resource teacher as well as Mom and lecture on ADD and ADHD.  If
I can be of further help, let me know.

SUBJECT:    Update on Teenage Son w/ADD     Date:  97-04-30 18:52:40 EST
From:  LGilb24634

Just thought I would let you know what's going on.  The advocate I retained
discovered that when he was tested in the first grade a preliminary report on
their findings was prepared.  They were to issue a final report and
placement.  The final report and placement never happened.  The advocate said
she thinks the Ritalin never helped him because he still exhibited the same
behavior during school.  All they did was agree he should be on Ritalin.  She
said the schools should have followed up on this and looked at what else
might have been done for him.  When he began to fail miserably in middle
school, they should have done testing and re-evaluations.  The advocate
called his school and pointed this out to them.

As advised by the advocate, Monday I sent a letter petitioning that he be put
back in school immediately.  Today I took him to his psychologist for a
complete educational and psychological evaluation.  About 30 minutes after I
returned to work, the Special Education teacher from school called me and
said they want to test my son right away.  They also want to contact his
psychologist to make sure the tests are not duplicated.  She apologized for
all we have been through and said the school will not try to block us from
obtaining the services he needs.  I think we're on the way!  I appreciate all
of your helpful comments and information.  I will let you know how things
turn out.  I also realize there will be setbacks, but I'm preparing for that.
Thanks to you all.

SUBJECT:    Re:Update on Teenage Son w/ADD     Date:  97-04-30 22:09:05 EST
From:  SusanS29

Oh that's wonderful. I'm so glad you found a good advocate!

SUBJECT:    NEED HELP
WITH ADD     Date:  97-05-02 17:39:47 EST
From:  POP12782

         Hi im in grade 9, and need to now what i can do to help me with my
add. I want to now if i can do something than everyday take CYLERT. I have
all f's, but i want to now if there is a way that can help me bring my grades
up with out taking medication. Please tell me what you did for your child
that helped he/she out in school. Did your child  stay after school a few
days, or use a tape recorder or what? If you can help me my e-mail is
pop12782. I would like to now what i can do. THANKYOU

SUBJECT:    Re:NEED HELP
WITH ADD     Date:  97-05-03 01:06:47 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hi Pop, Wow what a neat kid you are!! I think that you will do great in life,
but to get the help you need now I think it would be nice if you and your
parents brain stormed together in some of the the chat areas or in this
message area's.
     There are lots of ways to help you achieve your goals. Don't worry so
much about the grades for now, but look for ways to make learning easier.
There are lots of great people on line who will I am sure be able to give you
and your parents some great tips that will help you.
     It is hard to give you help without knowing what gives you difficulty.
That's pretty personal stuff. So getting your parents on line with you will
help.
     My idea for you is to brain storm with your parents  by : making a list
of different things in school that you think are difficult. An example my
girls list would say:  that they can't listen and do the work at the same
time/ They can't keep tract of papers/books/ pencils/ They forget how to
spell words or forget what they are doing.
     After you make the list/ see if you and your parents can come up with
solutions to help you that are easy for you to do. If you can't think up easy
solutions then post them here if your parents say it is ok and see what
solutions the parents/teachers here can find for you.
     Must say this again WOW you are really neat, few kids risk asking for
help at your age. YOU ARE GREAT!!!!!!!! Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:NEED HELP WITH ADD     Date:  97-05-03 08:06:09 EST
From:  RRTeach

Pop - don't stop taking the Cylert - not without consulting your doctor.  As
far as school work, it has been my experience that organizational skills more
than anything will help you succeed.

First, analyze your situation to determine why you are getting Fs. Are you
doing all the assignments? Are you losing them before you get a chance to
turn them in? Do you understand the material? Are you missing some of the
background necessary?  From the tone of your previous posting, you should be
able to do this.

Repost or e-mail me and I will give you some suggestions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Linda Polsky
PATCHogue, NY
email: [e-mail]
          [e-mail]
          [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman to hear him,
is he still wrong?


SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-05-03 11:06:55 EST
From:  Cory Jang

My son is 21 and had all the same problems.  He tried medication and
speach/lang classes etc. School was a torture for him.  He is now working at
a bank where he is constantly moving with customers and does all the
transactions needed.  He is doing very well.  All the skills we thought he
didn't learn were there all the time.  He says he knew he had it but he felt
he didn't need to prove himself to his teachers.  Some children just need to
see a reason for producing what they know.  My son said if he was paid in
school the way he is now paid, he would have shown them what  he knew. I hope
this eases your anxiety.

SUBJECT:    can of worms, should i open?     Date:  97-05-06 08:19:46 EST
From:  GIN3153

After reading all these letters I am not sure what to do.  My 12yr old ADHD
son is at the end of his sixth grade year and has been suspended 13 times
since January.  Now they are saying he may have to go to summer school as
well.  He started out the school year by making honor roll for two grading
periods and has dropped from there.  My problem is that his psychiatrist is
now recommending that we change schools.  However, the whole county is the
same district and usually only allows for change of schools based on job or
daycare convenience.   The school has been a nightmare to work with but that
does not sound so unusual after reading some of the things I have read. We
have not filed any formal complaint with the school or anyone else up to this
point but now I am not sure if maybe we should.  We were trying to give the
school the benefit of the doubt and just trying to make it thru the year.
Here's some of what we have faced and if anyone can give any helpful advice,
that would be great.  I have already ordered the Educational Manual from
CHADD but it has not come in yet.  I talked with the school counselor about
my son's comprehension to see about getting him any resource help.  she asked
if he had any testing done and I told her only the ADHD testing, she told me
if she could get that report she could see if it qualified him for any
resource help.  She didn't bother to tell me that the school required  the
test to be from within a 3 yr period nor did she bother to tell me that the
school can do the testing.  I also asked her about help with my son's study
skills, esp. notetaking, and she told me he did not need to worry about
notetaking skills.  He's in 6th grade, exactly when should we start worrying
about it?   I also talked with her at the request of our doctor who said he
felt like my son was bored with the work, she told me she didn't think he was
bored, just being lazy.  I did not even argue as I just thought there was no
use.  One suspension entailed my son getting in trouble on a Friday and was
to serve his suspension on Monday, only the suspension room was too full so
had to serve on Tuesday instead.  That Monday he was given rules for being
allowed to go on a field trip which said if he got a suspension he would not
be allowed to go.  He was handed the sheet and he asked teacher if he would
still be able to go, she said no.  Now, he did not get the rules until after
he got in trouble so does this make sense?  Granted, I knew he would end up
in more trouble and not be able to go anyway but she did not even allow him
to reach for the goal.  We did go to war on that issue and won but I think
she had already showed my son that he didn't have a chance.  Another instance
was my son did not finish all of a contract when in suspension.  He was
required to copy the multiplication tables up to 12 for 12 times each and he
miscounted on the 12's and only did them ten times.  He was put in lunch
detention and finished them.  He was told to come home and tell us and did
not.  Now I have told the school many many times, if problem, call me, and
they can't seem to do this.  Since he did not come home and tell us and they
did not call me, they made him sit in the office not doing any work the whole
next day.  When I talked with the principle about it all he said was there
must have been some miscommunication.  Son was suspended for threatening
another student, which I admit is the right thing to do, however, when my son
was threatened and student admitted it, all that happened was a talk with the
student. One teacher sent us note stating that they thought his medication
time should be changed to earlier in order for him to better concentrate.  I
replied with a letter letting her know that I would discuss it with the doc,
that day she had him take it at the time she wanted him to take it and when
we talked  with principal about that he said he would talk with her but acted
as if it was no big deal.
Should I file any formal complaint and if so, with whom?


SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-06 09:59:51 EST
From:  CHSMom

The first questions:  does your son have an IEP or a 504 plan?  If not, I'm
not clear on what basis you would file a formal complaint.  If not, you need
to pursue that right away, although it is getting close to the end of the
school year and they are allowed to wait until the beginning of the next
school year.  All you have to do is WRITE a letter to the principal, teacher,
or school psychologist saying you want your sone assessed for special
education.  What state are you in?  Some state, like California, have adopted
a behavior intervention program called Positive Behavior Support, and
behaivor interventions can be written into the IEP.  If you let me know what
state you'r in, I can find out if your state adopted this.  Don't let them
tell you "it's not time to worry."  Whenever the child is having difficulties
is the right time to worry.  A lot of school personnel don't understand that
the child has behavior problems as a result of academic difficulties, not the
other way around.  Good luck!

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-06 14:21:38 EST
From:  KErnhart

You need to request in writting to school a request to have your son
evaluated as of today!!!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-06 15:10:43 EST
From:  Lmazzola

<<My 12yr old ADHD son is at the end of his sixth grade year and has been
suspended 13 times since January.>>
          First of all, you need to clarify for us whether or not he is on an
IEP or a 504 plan. But putting that aside for now, 13 suspensions seems
excessive. What's going on at that school? Where are you located? How large
are the classes?
<<I talked with the school counselor about my son's comprehension to see
about getting him any resource help.  she asked if he had any testing done
and I told her only the ADHD testing, she told me if she could get that
report she could see if it qualified him for any resource help.>>
              If he's been evaluated for ADHD, who did the evaluation? He
would still qualify for services under "Other Health Impairment" even if he
didn't have a "specific lesarning disability" as long as the ADHD was
interfering with learning.
<< I also asked her about help with my son's study skills, esp. notetaking,
and she told me he did not need to worry about notetaking skills.  He's in
6th grade, exactly when should we start worrying about it?   I also talked
with her at the request of our doctor who said he felt like my son was bored
with the work, she told me she didn't think he was bored, just being lazy.>>
            The last part of your sentence..."just being lazy" really burns
me! This is the ULTIMATE cop-out for teachers who don't do their jobs. IMHO.
<< One suspension entailed my son getting in trouble on a Friday and was to
serve his suspension on Monday, only the suspension room was too full so had
to serve on Tuesday instead.>>
             Again, I have to ask, what is going on at that school? Is this
typical?
<<That Monday he was given rules for being allowed to go on a field trip
which said if he got a suspension he would not be allowed to go.  He was
handed the sheet and he asked teacher if he would still be able to go, she
said no.  Now, he did not get the rules until after he got in trouble so does
this make sense?>>
           This is just plain, old, dirty pool! You are correct about him not
even having the CHANCE to reach that goal. He was set up to fail.That's like
changing the rules in the middle of the game. Unless, of course, this is
"standard procedure" and he knew the consequences from previous trips.
<<He was required to copy the multiplication tables up to 12 for 12 times
each and he miscounted on the 12's and only did them ten times.>>
             Perhaps SusanS29 can respond to this, but I think she has
written that forcing a child to do repititious "busy work" is not only
useless, but can be counter-productive as well. Was this just a form of
"punishment" or does he not know his times tables and this was supposed to
"help" him remember them?
<<One teacher sent us note stating that they thought his medication time
should be changed to earlier in order for him to better concentrate.  I
replied with a letter letting her know that I would discuss it with the doc,
that day she had him take it at the time she wanted him to take it and when
we talked  with principal about that he said he would talk with her but acted
as if it was no big deal.>>
           This astounds me! Here I am, trying to get the teachers to just
make "observations" so the the Dr. can make a prescription change, if
necessary, and you've got the teacher playing Doctor. Go figure. This is VERY
inappropriate and illegal. There are STRICT state and federal laws and
guidelines regarding the dispensing of a controlled substance (Ritalin,
Dexedrine, etc.) that MUST be followed (as well as other medications -
remember the Midol case a few months ago?)
  CHSMom wrote:
<<If not, you need to pursue that right away, although it is getting close to
the end of the school year and they are allowed to wait until the beginning
of the next school year.>>
    I believe that this is incorrect. There are timelines that must be
followed whenever a request for evaluations is made.







SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-06 16:40:41 EST
From:  R u Niz

Go into the school and sign for the testing now--to determine if he is
eligible for services under IDEA.  They cannot make you wait till next year
for that.  If they know he is identified as ADHD (and they must if he is
taking medication during the school day) ask to see his 504 Plan.  You should
have been involved in the meeting during which the plan was written.  If
there is no 504, the school needs to convene a meeting with you and the team
of teachers and professionals responsible and get it written.  They cannot
wait until next year to make necessary accomodations to help your son
succeed.  13 suspensions is a lot--If your son is eligible for services under
IDEA, there is a limit to the number of days he can be removed from class
without  it becoming a change of placement.  Ratatat can let you know if this
is true under 504, too.    Good luck!

SUBJECT:    can of worms, records     Date:  97-05-07 05:58:09 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Should I file any formal complaint and if so, with whom? >

I hardly know where to begin.  This school is not providing sound educational
care, has committed violation after violation of your child's civil rights,
and is wildly out of compliance with the Federal laws!

First, and most important rule when dealing with the schools:  DOCUMENT
EVERYTHING IN WRITING.  Always make your requests IN WRITING.  Phone
conversations are nice, but in the end, it's your word against their word.
And, whenever you have a conversation with the school that they initiate,
follow it up with a letter saying, "This is to reiterate what we talked about
yesterday."
 Make copies of EVERYTHING.  Keep one copy in a safe place. Then use the
other one to built a Student Record Book for your own use.  Request that
copies of all student records be made available to you for review.  Go in
with a pad and review the files, making an inventory of everything in the
file.  Then check the records you need copies of.   Request a Release of
Information form and ask that they provide you with copies of all the records
pertaining to you child that you don't already have.

Remember that schools each can have their own filing system.  You need to ask
them, "What are the names of each kind of student file, and where are they
kept."  Most school will have a general cummulative student file, and if the
child has an educational plan under 504 or IDEA, then they should have a
"special education file," or "confidential file"  (they can call it different
things).  And, they should also then have a "compliance file."  A compliance
file will be a record of each individual who has accessed your child's
confidential file.

The school is required by federal law to maintain student files in about this
way, and to make them available to you upon request, and to make copies for
you upon request.  The law is called the Buckley Amendment, informally.  The
proper name is the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act.

SUBJECT:    can of
worms, Suspensions     Date:  97-05-07 06:12:12 EST
From:  Ratatat

<My 12yr old ADHD son is at the end of his sixth grade year and has been
suspended 13 times since January.  Now they are saying he may have to go to
summer school as well.>

We do need some more information from you, but the general rule about
students with disabilities and suspensions is:

10 or more days of suspension (cumulatively or all together), is considered a
significant "change of placement."  The school cannot change the placement of
your child without first following the federal procedcures for doing so.

We don't know if your child has an IEP under IDEA or under 504.  Each law has
a different set of procedures regarding how placement is changed.

Under IDEA, a change of placement cannot occur without first reconvening a
full IEP team meeting in order to adapt it to plan for the change of
placement, and the child's educational needs in the new "placement."

Under Section 504 law, a change of placement cannot occur without first
conducting a complete and thorough evaluation of the student in order to
assess that students needs in a new placement that will assure the student
continues to have full access to the educational program.

Once I know if your child has a educational plan under IDEA or 504, I can be
more specific.

Also, if your child does not have an educational plan under IDEA or 504, and
they have made a significant change of placement while knowing that your
child has ADHD (must since he takes meds at school), they cannot do this
until they provide him with an evaluation to see if his behaviors are related
to his disability, and if they are they must then write a plan to accommodate
his disabilities in the school's program.

Under a provision called "child find" the schools are required to identify,
evaluate and serve each child in their district who has a disability. Any
child who is suspected of having a disability that is interferring with their
learning MUST be evaluated.  If found to have a disability that is
interferring with their learning, they must then be provided with services
under one of these laws.

SUBJECT:    can of worms, SQUEAK!!     Date:  97-05-07 06:20:30 EST
From:  Ratatat

<We were trying to give the school the benefit of the doubt and just trying
to make it thru the year.  >

I don't see any benefit in this, especially since they continually abuse
their authority and violate your rights.

The sooner you get started, the sooner you get to the end.  Don't delay,
don't play the "let's see how it goes" game any longer.  There is no "promise
for a better tomorrow" with this crowd, in my humble opinion.  You need to
make some waves, formally, and excercise your rights.

You must request from the school's district office and request a copy of
their Section 504 procedures and safeguards manual.  Each district is REQURED
by the Office of Civil Rights to have a set written 504 procedures, and to
make copies available to the parents.  You need to get a copy of this, so you
know your basic civil rights.  If they say they don't have one, or it's not
available, they are in violation.  This is required of them.  If they are
unable to provide you with a copy, you can contact the Office of Civil Rights
(OCR) in your state and request this information from OCR and make an
informal complaint at the same time.

I would also recommend that you contact your state's Department of
Education's Office of Special Education and ask for a copy of the Special
Education Laws for your state.  Each state must "encode" the federal laws
into their state's laws.  They state's laws must at least meet the standards
of the federal law, or may exceed them.

SUBJECT:    can of worms, Evaluations     Date:  97-05-07 06:29:17 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I talked with the school counselor about my son's comprehension to see about
getting him any resource help.  she asked if he had any testing done and I
told her only the ADHD testing, she told me if she could get that report she
could see if it qualified him for any resource help.  She didn't bother to
tell me that the school required  the test to be from within a 3 yr period
nor did she bother to tell me that the school can do the testing>

If you could give us some detail here.  When was your child evaluated for
ADHD?  By whom?  When did you inform the school?

You mention the 3 year period... which makes me think that either you child
has an IEP under IDEA, or that its been more than three years since he was
evaluated and diagnosed.  Can you clarify.

Also, the school counselor cannot just "see if he's eligible for resource
help."  That is a team decision, and you are a part of that team!  There are
very specific procedures set forth for making sure a child with a disability
has their needs met.  ADHD is a real disability.  And, the school counselor
doing a "look-see" doesn't come close to following the procedures.

You have already been told to request that your the school evaluate your
child.  Do this.  IN WRITING.  And copy the special education director for
your district, and the princpal.  In your letter state the observed problems
you child has been having with school, and then request that he  be given a
comprehensive and full *individual* evaluation so that he can then be
provided with an appropriate education that meets his unique needs.

SUBJECT:    can
of worms, study skills     Date:  97-05-07 06:31:43 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I also asked her about help with my son's study skills, esp. notetaking, and
she told me he did not need to worry about notetaking skills.  He's in 6th
grade, exactly when should we start worrying about it?>

Kids with ADHD often need study skills to be taught, like a subject.  Often
the direct study skills instruction can be incorporated into the academic
subject (in fact, they should).  Whichever... taught as part of a course, or
independently, they should be taught.  It's a reasonable request, and
appropriate.  You are right.  NOW is the time to start worrying about
it.

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-07 06:37:19 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I also talked with her at the request of our doctor who said he felt like
my son was bored with the work, she told me she didn't think he was bored,
just being lazy. >

Neither of these "analyses" of your child current performance is acceptable.
Personally, I don't believe that there is any child who is truly lazy.  I
believe instead that there are children who are overwhelmed and don't know
where to beging, so don't.  There are children who don't understand
something, don't know how to get help, so don't.  There are so many possible
explanations for why a child might "look" lazy, that lazy is the last
conclusion anyone should ever come to.  Lazy is an old tired handle of an
excuse slapped onto kids with ADHD for decades.  I'm personally sick of
hearing it.  It's garbage.

It could be your child is bored.  But why?  Could it be that he's bored
because he's gifted and truly bored?  Could it be that he's bright and
because of his ADHD is missing information because its not interesting to him
and he loses the train of conversation in the classroom and therefore is
bored with it?

You haven't said what your child's tested IQ is.  Not that one should be a
lot of stock in this, but if it is high then the school (and you) should
expect him to achieve at a high level.  If he is not achieving at the level
you would expect given his potential (IQ is the indication of that), then he
must be provided with accommodations so that he can perform at his expected,
individual level.

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, rules     Date:  97-05-07 06:42:32 EST
From:  Ratatat

<He was handed the sheet and he asked teacher if he would still be able to
go, she said no.  Now, he did not get the rules until after he got in trouble
so does this make sense? >

Yes, I understand why this bothered you.  It seems that instinctively you
knew that a chld with ADHD needs to have the rules spelled out very clearly
BEFOREHAND.  Clearly stated rules that are spelled out establish the
"framework" within which a child can perform.  You are right, they must know
what their parameters are beforehand, and the rules should be periodically
re-stated.

Question... does this school have a student handbook where these rules,
policies and procedures are spelled out somewhere for parents and students to
have ready access?  Do they hand out the rules at the beginning of the year?
Or, to they interpret them as they go along, making them up on the fly?

I wouldn't harp on this one issue too much, but it may be an indication of
other "hidden" rules that you haven't bumped into yet.  You should ask the
school, in writing, for a written set of their policies and procedures.

SUBJECT:
Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-07 06:49:43 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Another instance was my son did not finish all of a contract when in
suspension.  He was required to copy the multiplication tables up to 12 for
12 times each and he miscounted on the 12's and only did them ten times.  He
was put in lunch detention and finished them.  He was told to come home and
tell us and did not.  Now I have told the school many many times, if problem,
call me, and they can't seem to do this.  Since he did not come home and tell
us and they did not call me, they made him sit in the office not doing any
work the whole next day.  When I talked with the principle about it all he
said was there must have been some miscommunication.>

You've been told already about how having a child with ADHD or a learning
disability is not productive, and can actually harm learning.  This is true.
This was a dumb punishment.

I need you to clarify something.  Are you saying that since your child
"mis-counted" the number of times he did his times tables that he was then
asked to tell you about this.  No written note?  And they expect a kid with
ADHD to hold this information in his head, and retreive it later to tell you?

And, then you are saying that they checked with (you, him??) and found out
that he hadn't told you, so they gave a day of in-house suspension in the
principal's office - sitting doing nothing?

This in unbelievable.  And, then the principal says that there must have been
some sort of mis-communication?  I would call it NO COMMUNICATION.  They
school did not communicate with you directly.  They did/do have some
responsibility here, and they passed the buck to your kid and when he failed
they punished him.  So, what was this supposed mis-communcation?  What was
the principal referring to?  That they forgot to call you?

SUBJECT:    can of
worms, medications     Date:  97-05-07 06:58:20 EST
From:  Ratatat

<One teacher sent us note stating that they thought his medication time
should be changed to earlier in order for him to better concentrate.  I
replied with a letter letting her know that I would discuss it with the doc,
that day she had him take it at the time she wanted him to take it and when
we talked  with principal about that he said he would talk with her but acted
as if it was no big deal. >

This is the single, most inappropriate action I've ever hear of.  When did
this teacher go to medical school?  And, is she your child's primary care
physician?  Does she know what time he gets his morning dose of medication?
Did she realize that she might have been giving two doses too close together?
Does she know if your child is on any other medication? Or, has any other
medical conditions that could impact his medical care and regimen?

What this teacher did was highly illegal.  She has no authority to change a
doctor's orders.  She has no authority to decide the prescription orders of a
Schedule II medication.  Since she was operating without full medical
knowledge about your son, what she did was potentially VERY dangerous.  She's
just dumb lucky that nothing bad happened.

The Office of Civil Rights has ruled a number of times that the school MUST
provide a student's medication according to doctor's orders, EXACTLY.

In my state, there are very specific rules about the dispensing of medication
in schools.  You can call your state's Attorney General's office and ask if
they have issued any opinions on this, and to send you copies.  This will
spell it out.

Your doctor should be insensed over this.  It were my doctor, I would ask him
to write a letter to the principal, copy the director of special education
(and you), and re-state STRONGLY what his medication ORDERS are, and to lodge
a formal complaint about this teacher and her blantant violation of his
orders.

SUBJECT:    can of worms, Complain     Date:  97-05-07 07:01:54 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Should I file any formal complaint and if so, with whom?>

Yes.  I think I would.  Call the Office of Civil Rights in your state and
explain to them what you've told us here.  They can provide you with some
guidance about how to procede.  They exist, not to punish schools, but rather
to try to get schools into compliance regarding the civil rights laws that
protect disabled students.  They have the authority to punish, but mostly
they just try to get the schools to do what they are supposed to do.  And,
often, once the school knows that OCR is involved they tend to fly right more
quickly.

Also, locate and contact the Protection and Advocacy Agency in your state
(what state is this).  This office should be located in your capital.  The
exist to provide guidance, information and sometimes referrals to people in
your situation.

I would also think about hiring an advocate.  This is quite a twisted web the
school has spun.  You might need knowledgable help sorting it all out.

SUBJECT:
Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-07 07:15:16 EST
From:  Ratatat

<You've been told already about how having a child with ADHD or a learning
disability is not productive, and can actually harm learning.  This is true.
This was a dumb punishment.>

Sorry... I garbled this in my rage!  It should read that having a child with
ADHD do massive copy work as punishment (or homework) in non-productive and
can actually cause harm.

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, medications     Date:  97-05-07 08:57:18 EST
From:  JEANNANC

I would absolutely lodge a complaint against this teacher and anyone else who
was involved with changing his medication schedule.

SUBJECT:    my can of worms     Date:  97-05-07 10:21:33 EST
From:  GIN3153

WOW!  First, thanks to all who responded so quickly.  Let me try to answer a
few questions that have been asked.  We live in South Carolina, my son does
not have an IEP or 504 in place as of yet.  I haven't had much luck in this
department for some reason and maybe I just haven't pursued it enough.  I
have asked teachers, counselors, and doctors what type of things need to be
included for MY son and nobody has given me any answers.  The doctor we are
going to now is going to help us with it but our problem lies in that we are
currently trying to get his medication right and figure out exactly what he
needs to succeed at this school. The ritalin quit working sometime between
December and January and I had to find a new doctor as the old one only
worked with ritalin and recommended finding a specialist after trying
different types and dosages of the ritalin.  We finally found one in March,
he is a psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD and has children of his own with
it.  I have found him to be very helpful so far.  But the problem still is
that we can not seem to get his medication right, or so it seems, as hard to
tell what is right when school is like this.  What I think is good while at
home and doing homework, etc doesn't seem to be enough for what is needed at
this school.  We have gone through huge ups and downs with medications trying
to get it right before we attempt to plan a 504 but am beginning to believe
that maybe medication is not the only problem.  I didn't realize all this
until after reading some of your responses.  Yes, I am a little slow!  We
also believe that I am ADD as well!!!  Anyway, how is it going to be possible
to find a correct type or dosage of medication if I can't really believe all
of what the school is telling me.  I will call the doctor today with this new
revelation that you all have helped me to discover but any suggestions from
you all would help as well.
     Yes, my son was tested for ADHD in October of 1993 by Childrens Hospitol
for Developmental Pediatrics.  From looking over the report again I can find
nothing telling me his exact IQ level but it was determined at the time(third
grade) that he was reading on beginning 5th grade level with some of the
reading portions in the 6th grade level, mathmatics ranged in 2nd grade
level, written language in 3rd grade level.  Broad knowledge testing revealed
a late fourth grade level.  This showed strengths in social studies at a late
5th grade level, and science and humanities at a mid 4th grade level.  At the
time I received this report the first time I did not know much about ADHD and
my husband did not believe in it(divorced now) so it is partly my fault that
I did not act to provide my son more help. I did not remember getting a copy
of this evaluation so I requested another one and have been on the go since
reading it. I am learning and am trying now.  Noone ever mentioned a 504 or
IEP to my and my hub(recent) until we went to a seminar on ADHD.  However,
like I said we have had a hard time getting any type of input as to what
should be in it for my son.  I have asked his two main teachers as well as
others about suggestions and have read books but with this school I have no
clue as to what HE NEEDS to survive!!!
     The school he is at has finally agreed to have him tested by them but
there is such a long waiting list that it will not happen until August or
September.  I told them I wanted it done anyway. I am reluctant to give them
a copy of his ADHD evaluation for fear of the telling me that he has the
ability and is just not applying himself.  Should I give them a copy?  As you
can tell I am not very good or knowledgable about standing up for my son's
rights and know that I need to but they also seem to twist things around and
I can't fully grasp what they say at the meetings until later when I have had
more time to think about it.  Thank you all for the concern, you have been a
great help! .
feel free to email me...
[e-mail]


SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, rules     Date:  97-05-07 11:22:20 EST
From:  GIN3153

<Question... does this school have a student handbook where these rules,
policies and procedures are spelled out somewhere for parents and students to
have ready access?  Do they hand out the rules at the beginning of the year?
Or, to they interpret them as they go along, making them up on the fly?>

The student handbook does not cover this issue.  I have a copy of it.  The
dates on the rules handed out clearly defined the dates it would cover for
infractions.  His infraction occurred the Friday before the dates outlined on
the rules.  While we did get them to say that he would still be eligible, the
damage was already done to my son.  He ended up getting more suspensions and
not being able to go in the end.  However, he did not even have the chance to
see it as a goal since they shot him down right from the start.  I am not
sure I would have even wanted to go if they had done that to me.  I would
have felt like they just did not want me to go!

SUBJECT:    can of worms/times
tables     Date:  97-05-07 11:38:21 EST
From:  GIN3153

<I need you to clarify something.  Are you saying that since your child
"mis-counted" the number of times he did his times tables that he was then
asked to tell you about this.  No written note?  And they expect a kid with
ADHD to hold this information in his head, and retreive it later to tell
you?>
<And, then you are saying that they checked with (you, him??) and found out
that he hadn't told you, so they gave a day of in-house suspension in the
principal's office - sitting doing nothing?>


Yes, he miscounted and only did 10 each of the 12 tables.  He finished them
during lunch detention and was told to tell us to either call or come to the
school.  He didn't and they did not bother to call after I have told them
time and time again!  His referral was on a Friday, he served it on Monday,
lunch detention on Tuesday, missed one and a half classes on Wednesday
sitting in office and running errands for asst. principal, spent entire day
in office on Thursday doing nothing, and finally told us Thursday night.
Never one phone call from school to find out why we had not even responded to
the suspension.  Yes they sent home a notice on the Friday he got in trouble
but they have been told that he lies, he doesn't give us notes, CALL!  You
would think after us asking this so much and not getting a response right
away about the suspension that they would have at least called by Tuesday if
not sooner.






SUBJECT:    Re:my can of worms     Date:  97-05-07 12:42:19 EST
From:  KErnhart

After you have sent a writte request to school personell they have 41
instructional days to finish testing and hold confrence.  This is federal law
IDEA.   Let them know you are aware of the time limits, they should be
setting a date as soon as possible.  If they do not meet the time limit, you
need to write a letter of complaint to your stated dept. pf education
Director.   DO NOT WAIT TILL SEPT!!!!!!!!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:my can of worms     Date:  97-05-07 16:50:12 EST
From:  Lmazzola

They really do have to complete the testing within the time frame specified.
If they are backlogged, they must contract outside help to get the
evaluations done. Not enough money, not enough personel etc. are not valid
excuses under the law.

SUBJECT:    Re:my can of worms     Date:  97-05-07 17:52:41 EST
From:  R u Niz

Gin--
1. Take a deep breath.
2. Stop blaming yourself--frankly, schools do a woeful job of informing
parents of          federal laws or rights.
3. Re-read Ratatat's excellent advice.  She is a professional whether she
knows it        or not. :)
4. Follow Ratatat's excellent advice.  Sign for the testing.  The time frame
is the           school's problem, not yours.  Once you sign the papers, the
deadline is set and     the clock starts ticking.
5. If the school does its job (:)), they should rush to get the 504 at least
written to           cover their own butts (can we say that on AOL?)  Don't
worry about the effects of     meds--the school should be doing its job to
help accomodate your son's needs.
6. To repeat some very good advice that Ratatat left out--go give your son a
hug.          You two are going to share this battle--let it be a labour of
love.

Good luck!

SUBJECT:    Re:  Can of Worms     Date:  97-05-07 19:19:25 EST
From:  LGilb24634

I wrote the message concerning my teenage son with ADD.  I urge you to get an
advocate.  Mine is wonderful.  I've only been working with her for about two
weeks and the school has contacted my son's psychologist.  They are working
on doing additional testing that his psychologist does not have scheduled.  A
social worker is coming tomorrow.  The Special Ed teacher has called me. They
are hopping!  My son's advocate has established a good rapport with the
schools but has let them know that they have absolutely not followed the
correct procedures with my son.  She says they are moving quickly to cover
their "butts".  Listen to these folks here.  They are great and have so much
knowledge.  A month ago I didn't know where to begin.  Now we're on the way!
I know I have a great deal more to learn, but I've already learned a lot
here.

SUBJECT:    where to start?     Date:  97-05-09 11:28:09 EST
From:  TLVAIL

I have a 12 yr. old son who has managed to do well in school up til this yr.
He's in 6th gr. and is unable to keep up with 7 classes.  The ADDES form
completed by myself, his teachers and my son all indicate ADD is the problem.
The school has been great about working with me thus far.  Midterms came out
and he has c's and D's in all his classes.  He averaged A's in homework and
tests as a result of our interventions at home but 0-30's on classwork.  He
says he just can't concentrate in class.  I'm trying a vitamin called "Alert"
that he says helps him tremendously but I know I need to get medical help.
Should I go to a psychiatrist or general practitioner?  I'm concerned about
trying any meds this late in the school year as all kids seem a bit "out or
sorts".  I want to do a double blind study to be sure the medication is
helping and don't think we'll get valid results.  I don't think it's
necessary to have the school test him as he was tested in 3rd grade and put
in the Academically gifted program.  He also qualified as LD due to the huge
discrepency in written language (27 points) but because he was still
funtioning on grade level and I could work on editing and spelling at home, I
chose not to give him the label.  I still don't think resource would help as
he obviously is getting the material as indicated by his test scores and the
fact he can do his homework with ease.  How can I control, or help him
control, how he does in the classroom?

SUBJECT:    Assessment of ADHD     Date:  97-05-09 13:39:33 EST
From:  Ratatat

I'm on a tear and will come back with some more explicit comments later...
but in the meantime, I think this might help answer *some* of your questions:

Assessment of Attention Deficit Disorders: A Team Approach

Harvey C. Parker, Ph.D.
Clinical Psychologist
Author of The ADD Hyperactivity Workbook for Parents, Teachers, and Kids.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The primary characteristics of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
(ADHD/ADD) are not difficult to spot in a classroom. However, not all
children who are inattentive, impulsive, or overactive have ADD. These same
symptoms can be a result of other factors such as: frustration with difficult
schoolwork, lack of motivation, emotional concerns, or other medical
conditions. A comprehensive assessment by a team of professionals working in
conjunction with the parents and the child can usually determine whether
problems are the result of ADD or other factors. Members of this assessment
team usually include physicians, psychologists, social workers, and school
personnel such as teachers, guidance counselors, or learning specialists.

The Physicians Role

Routine Physical examinations of children with ADD are often normal, but they
are needed to rule out the unlikely possibility of there being a medical
condition which could cause ADD-like symptoms. Tests such as chromosome
studies, electroencephalograms (EEGs), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), or
computerized axial tomograms (CT scans) are not used routinely for evaluation
of ADD. Child and adolescent psychiatrists and pediatric neurologists may
play an important part in identifying this condition as well as other
possible related conditions such as learning disabilities, Tourette syndrome,
pervasive development disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety
disorder, depression or bipolar disorder.

The Psychologist's Role

Clinical or school psychologists administer and interpret psychological and
educational tests of cognition, perception, and language development (such as
intelligence, attention span, visual-motor skills, memory, impulsivity) as
well as tests of achievement and social/emotional adjustment. Psychologists
and other mental health professionals often interpret data collected from
parents and teachers who complete behavior rating scales about the child in
question. Results of such tests can provide important clues as to whether a
child's difficulties are related to having ADD and/or other problems with
learning, behavior, or emotional adjustment. Such scales offer quantifiable,
descriptive information about the child, thus providing a means by which to
compare the child's behavior to that of others of the same sex and age. Some
of the more popular rating scales used in the assessment of ADD are: Conners
Teacher Rating Scale (CTRS) and Conners Parent Rating Scale (CPRS), ADD-H:
Comprehensive Teacher Rating Scale (ACTeRS), ADHD Rating Scale, Child
Attention Profile, Child Behavior Checklist (CBCL), Home Situations
Questionnaire, School Situations Questionnaire, and Academic Performance
Rating Scale (APRS).

The School's Role

Assessments for ADD should always include information about the student's
current and past classroom performance, academic skills strengths and
weaknesses, attention span, and other social, emotional, or behavioral
characteristics. Such information can be gathered through teacher interviews,
review of cumulative records, analysis of test scores, and direct observation
of the student in class. The student's adjustment in class should relate to
aspects of the instructional environment, namely: the curriculum in which the
student is working; teacher expectations for the class and for the individual
student; methods of instruction employed by the teacher; incentives for work
completion; methods of teacher feedback to students; and comparative
performance of other students in the class.



SUBJECT:    Assessment of ADD - 2     Date:  97-05-09 13:40:25 EST
From:  Ratatat

Continuation:

The Parent's Role

Having witnessed the child in a variety of situations over a number of years,
parents have the unique perspective on their child's previous development and
current adjustment. Information from parents is usually acquired by interview
or through questionnaires completed by parents. The focus is usually on
obtaining overall family history, current family structure and functioning,
and to document important events from the child's medical, developmental,
social, and academic history relevant to the assessment of ADD.

The Child's Role

An interview with the child offers the clinician the opportunity to observe
the child's behavior and can yield valuable information as to the child's
social and emotional adjustment, feelings about themselves and others,
attitudes about school and other aspects of their life. However, even
children with ADD often behave well during such interviews. Therefore,
observations of a child's behavior, level of activity, attentiveness, or
other compliance made during the interview sessions should not be taken as
true of the child in other settings. Normal behavior in a one-on-one setting
does not diminish the likelihood of the child having ADD.

The Team's Role after the Assessment

Ideally, after all the data has been collected, members of the assessment
team should collaborate to discuss their findings. This should lead to a
thorough understanding of the child's strengths and areas of need physically,
academically, behaviorally, and emotionally. If a diagnosis of attention
deficit disorder (and/or other conditions) is established, treatment planning
should be done in all areas where interventions are recommended. The
physician may discuss appropriate medical interventions with the child and
parents. The psychologist or other mental health professional may discuss
counseling, behavior modification, or social and organizational skills
training options. The school may set up classroom interventions to
accommodate the child's areas of need in school or may provide special
education or related services. Once the initial assessment is completed and
appropriate treatment is instituted, there should be routine follow-up by
members of the assessment and treatment team to determine how the child is
progressing. ADD, being a chronic condition, will often require long-term
care and monitoring on a regular basis. Obviously, parents play a key role in
encouraging members of the assessment and treatment team to maintain close
collaboration and to work together consistently for the best interests of the
child. Coordination of all this, whether it be by a parent or a professional,
is no easy task, but the outcome is usually well worth the effort.



SUBJECT:    Re:where to start?     Date:  97-05-11 08:02:29 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I have a 12 yr. old son who has managed to do well in school up til this yr.
He's in 6th gr. and is unable to keep up with 7 classes.  >

The handling of multiple transitions, increased academic demands, and
increased demands for independence of middle school is often when many kids
sort of "tap out" and start to slide.  This is not uncommon.  A really good
system to provide external structure and organizational support can go a long
way in correcting this.

<The school has been great about working with me thus far.  Midterms came out
and he has c's and D's in all his classes.  He averaged A's in homework and
tests as a result of our interventions at home but 0-30's on classwork. >

Have they specified the exact problems they see with the 0-30's on classroom
work?  In order to design an accommodation plan that will shore up the weak
areas, it will be very important to be as specific as possible about this.
It's quite possible that you have a child who is easily and highly
distractable, but without specifics, I'm just guessing.  Or, maybe his books
and materials aren't making it to class on a regular basis?  We need to know
what is interferring with his classwork to such a significant degree.

< I'm trying a vitamin called "Alert" that he says helps him tremendously but
I know I need to get medical help. >

Over the years I have become an strong advocate for including appropriate
medication in a global plan of treatment.  Medication allows the child to be
more available to learn and retain all the important systems (organizational
and otherwise) that they must remember and use.  It helps the brain "blaze" a
more direct neural pathway, which aids in later retreival.

<Should I go to a psychiatrist or general practitioner?>

More important than anything is to make sure you go to someone who really
knows about ADD and adolescents.  A psychologist, psychiatrist, general
practitioner, neurologist, etc.  It really doesn't matter as much as if they
person knows his stuff and is up to date.  Read the previous posts about
appropriate assessment written by Harvey Parker, on of the founders of CHADD.
An assessment for ADD should include a full psycho-educational battery of
abilities and performance.  The ADDES is a fine start as an indication that
ADD might be the problem, but multiple checklists should be done by
individuals in each setting, as well as by the child.  Usually, the Connor's
is considered very reliable, and for kids with high IQ the BAADS Scale is
often added.

< I'm concerned about trying any meds this late in the school year as all
kids seem a bit "out or sorts".  I want to do a double blind study to be sure
the medication is helping and don't think we'll get valid results. >

There is truly nothing to be concerned about with using medication for kids
with ADHD. The media has done a great job teaching the public about the
mythological aspects of ADHD and medication.  Make sure you get your
information from highly reliable and scientifically based sources.  I would
suggest that you start with Russell Barkley's "Taking Charge of ADHD."

And, actually, starting medication ASAP will allow you and your son to use
that time to find the right medication, the right dose, and make any needed
adjustments in a medication regimen.  Kids do have ADHD 24-hours a day, 7
days a week.

I doubt you could get a thorough evaluation completed in time to begin any
medication before school ends, but if this were my child, I would begin now
and take advantage of the time to get everything squared away by September.




SUBJECT:    Re:where to start?     Date:  97-05-11 08:05:31 EST
From:  Ratatat

< He also qualified as LD due to the huge discrepency in written language (27
points) but because he was still funtioning on grade level and I could work
on editing and spelling at home, I chose not to give him the label. >

About 40% of the kids who have ADHD also have learning disabilities.  It's
important to remember that untreated ADHD can really interfere with
remediation of the learning disabilities.  Though he was evaluated in 3rd
grade, most pratitioners would recommend the timeline of a three year
comprehensive re-evaluation, so he'd be due now anyway.  My children are in
private schools, but I've followed the advise of our psychologist and stuck
to the three-year re-evaluations.  One can gain some helpful insights this
way.

< I still don't think resource would help as he obviously is getting the
material as indicated by his test scores and the fact he can do his homework
with ease.  How can I control, or help him control, how he does in the
classroom?>

You will probably require a formal, official, 504 Plan for your child.  If
you go into the Special Education Library you can download a file called
"Menu of Accommodations."  This should give you a good idea of the sorts of
accommodations typically provided in schools for the regular education of
kids with ADHD.

If you have any more questions, fire away!  I'll try to be helpful.

SUBJECT:    Re:
Teenage son w/ADD     Date:  97-05-11 10:09:02 EST
From:  LGilb24634

We've hit a little setback as I knew we would.  Haven't reached my son's
advocate yet for advice.  Received letter from school system's discipline
officer in response to my petition to put him back in school.  He says he
will not put him back in school because at the time of his suspension he was
not identified in any program providing consideration for ADD.  He also
reminded me that I did not pursue his opportunity to go to a privately run
school at the county's expense. (This school is for children who have been
expelled or suspended for violence, drugs, etc. which does not apply to my
son and I don't want to put him in with this group of kids.  The headmaster
of the school told me my son did not belong at his school with these types of
children and that the county needed to correct their mistake of not providing
appropriate services for him because of the ADD.  The headmaster called me a
few weeks later and asked if I were still interested in sending my son to his
school.  I reminded him of what he told me and he said he just thought his
school might be better than no school at all.  [I think the county told him
he could not refuse to accept my son and that is why he called.]

It sounds like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.  The
special ed at his home school has contacted his psychoogist, sent a social
worker to my home and have scheduled him for testing this week.   They have
apologized for what we have been through and say they are moving as fast as
they can to get him in an appropriate program.

The discipline officer said in his letter that my son is STILL suspended for
the remainder of the year, but since I have brought up the issue of need for
addiitonal educational services he will ALLOW my son to go to school for
testing.  He said should my son be found eligible for additonal education
services prior to next school year, he may find that placement is directed by
that demonstrated need for additional education services.

I know this is long--sorry.  My question is, can they say that even though he
has ADD, he is not eligible for additional education services?  It has been
on his school records since first grade that he has ADD and nothing has been
done for him in middle school.  Isn't the school at fault?  Shouldn't they
have approached me with some services we might be interested in when he began
to have problems in school?  They have never mentioned IEPs or 504 to me.  Up
until the interest shown now by the special ed people, they have acted as
though he didn't even have ADD!

SUBJECT:    ADHD child chewing      Date:  97-05-11 13:04:46 EST
From:  Mo73

I am a Special Ed. teacher who has 1 particular child in my caseload that is
a mystery to me.  He is diagnosed ADHD, although I'm not sure that has
anything to do with this behavior.  He is always chewing.  At his desk he
chews through the eraser and metal part of his pencil, then moves down and
chews the wood and graphite until the pencil splits in half.  This is
happening more frequently, and at this point he is going through 2 or 3
pencils per day.  I am not always in his room, so I can't keep reminding him
not to do this.  Nor can his classroom teacher.  When he isn't in his class
he chews his shirt sleeve, although not all of the time.  But generally, if
there is a pencil in his hand he will chew it.  The OT thinks he needs to do
this due to a sensory issue.  His mom has noticed he has been chewing on the
phone cord and video game wires.  Has anyone ever encountered a child with
this type of behavior?  I really need help!  Thank you.

SUBJECT:    Re:  Teenage
son w/ADD     Date:  97-05-11 16:49:04 EST
From:  Ratatat

They cannot suspend or expel a student suspected of having ADD, with or
without first having a 504, until they have conducted a full evaluation of
the child and his educational program.  I've got more cites, but here are a
few.  I think you might want to call the Office of Civil Rights.  The
discipline officer has got it backwards and putting the school at risk!

Here are some helpful cites re: evaluation/discipline:

Although district treated student diagnosed  with ADHD as a disabled student
under Sec. 504, it failed to consider an appropriate range of placements and
services for him.  [Petaluma City {1995}]
Zirkel - Three : 217 (Sup. 3-11/96)

Significant staff persons responsible for a student's IEP lacked requisite
knowledge and training, resulting in denial of FAPE in violation of Sec. 504.
[Ocean View {1995b}]
Zirkel - Three : 219 (Sup. 3-11/96)

District may not subject a student suspected of having a disability to the
intitiation or continuation of major discipline pending an appropriate
evaluation of that disability. [J.W. {1995}]
Zirkel - Three : 220  (Sup. 3-11/96)

District's failure to formally assess a student diagnosed with ADHD, who was
taking medication and experiencing behaviorl and academic difficulties,
violated Sec. 504. [Petaluma City {1995}]
Zirkel - Three : 221  (Sup. 3-11/96)

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-05-11 18:38:44 EST
From:  Janismur

As the parent of an ADHD/LD child and as a public school teacher, I have
learned that there is a fine line between being an advocate for your child
and leting teachers do their jobs the best way they can.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD
child chewing      Date:  97-05-11 22:47:05 EST
From:  Moteachr

mo73--i teach for ssd in north st. louis and had a student who chewed on
anything and everything. he was on cylert and come to find out he was on way
too much dosage of the cylert.  so check his meds.  the only way we found
this out is when i referred him to a psy. who came to our school to answer
our questions.  let me know if i can help anymore. moteachr

SUBJECT:    How do you
get an advocate?     Date:  97-05-12 09:01:14 EST
From:  DLB232

Hi.  How do you go about getting an advocate for your child?  My 10 yr. old
was diagnosed with adhd last year.

SUBJECT:    Re:chewing     Date:  97-05-12 09:18:13 EST
From:  GlynFP1

     Are you sure you're not writing about my son? :)  Last year in school he
began chewing on his pencils.  He did it to the same degree about which you
write.  He chewed the metal off, chewed his pencils in half.  His pencils
never have erasers.  It got to the point where the kids in the class wanted
to help him and would provide him with "really neat looking erasers so that
maybe he wouldn't want to chew them up," as one boy told me.  (Aren't kids
great?!)  At any given time if you look in his desk at school he'll have
about half a pencil.  I have found a few other things in his  desk that he
has chewed up--plastic, etc.  He doesn't seem to chew his clothes, will
occasionally chew kleenex or paper, but not eat it.
     We feel that his chewing is directly related to his anxiety about
writing.  He is currently being evaluated for a ld in the area of written
expression.  When he has to write, he will chew his pencils.  It seems to be
a bit better with mechanical pencils, although the erasers don't usually
survive.

EGF

SUBJECT:    Re:chewing     Date:  97-05-12 11:06:52 EST
From:  Bre5

My 9 y.o. will also chew on things. He also picks at dry skin on his fingers
and arms (he has eczema which we try to keep under control). He picks so much
that some of his knuckles are swollen and often bleed all winter, but
bandages never stay on. He has to keep bandages on any tiny spot on his arms,
or he soon has an infection. He has spots that I have had to bandage every
day all winter, and he even tries to get under the bandages! It's not itchy,
just an obsessive need to pick at dry skin. This seems to be his type of
"hyperactive" behavior. He does it both on and off Ritalin. He is aware of
the problem and even wrote a story at school about his "picking problem", but
can't seem to stop. (It's really bad in church, when his hands are idle.)
Other that that he is happy and cooperative in school, and had a very good
report card! He keeps himself very busy at home with drawing and Legos, and
does not like to just watch TV unless he is doing one of these things. He is
also dealing with severe CAPD and severe speech-language disorders.

SUBJECT:
Re:chewing     Date:  97-05-13 06:57:32 EST
From:  SPCHRGM

Definetly check the meds level on both these kiddos...I would also like to
know if th eOT says it is an SI issue, is he then receiving OT services?
Sometimes, we see kids like this at the clinic and we recommend a "chewing
substitute" i.e. something else to chew on that will not cause harm or is
more socially acceptable.  For one child, we put a small plasic
disc(non-breakable) on a string which he wore around his neck (like a
pendant). At test time , he would chew on this disc as needed when takinjg
the test. Needless to say, it saved a lot of pencils.I would also be tempted
to check with the psychologist regarding ways to reduce anxiety at these
times. If writing is an issue due to sensory problems or visual-motor
integrative problems, he made need alternative ways to complete assignments
including more time, etc. (like on a 504 plan), or using a keyboard instead
of handwriting everything...good luck...Regina

SUBJECT:    trying to do this one
right     Date:  97-05-13 08:09:42 EST
From:  GIN3153

First, thanks to all who responded to my first letter, "can of worms."  You
were all a great help.
Just going through reading all the different posts has helped me learn alot
and realize that there is still a lot more to learn.  We have three boys,
13,12, and 6, all of who are ADHD and myself pretty sure that I am as well.
Needless to say, it stays rather exciting around here!  God certainly gave me
the right man as my husband as he has his hands full with all of us and
really tries to understand this side of us.

     My newest question to you all is.... My 6 year old will be starting 1st
grade in the fall.  His IQ ranked in the superior range at 108 and he seems
to be pretty much gifted in all areas.  The school he will be attending does
not offer any gifted classes until 4th grade so I plan on asking that he be
provided with a teacher that will keep him challenged and possibly see if
they will allow him in some mixed classes for his strongest subjects, i.e.
2nd grade math, etc.  He is currently doing 3rd grade math and doing quite
well.  We have talked with his kindergarten teacher and she agreed with this
approach rather than trying to skip a grade at this time as we feel he needs
to be with kids his age for the most part to develop more of his social
skills.  He is currently taking ritalin and it has worked well with him so
far.  His behavior is not a problem either since we started the ritalin last
year.  I do not really think he needs any special accomodations at this time
but not sure as to what the future will hold so I am trying to handle this
one a little better than I did with the last one.  Do I need any type of IEP
or 504 in place for my child at this school at this time?  If not, how
difficult will it be to get one in place if circumstances change?  I am
trying to stay ahead of the game with this one since we are so behind with
the other one.  Want to be prepared as best I can so that we don't end up
with a lot of the same problems.  Thanks for all the support and any advice
is welcome!

[e-mail]

SUBJECT:    Re:Psychotropic meds for ADH     Date:  97-05-13 09:43:50 EST
From:  DTatFord

I am a students affairs professional that works as a Disability Support
Advisor at a local state university. I am interested in learning the parents
perspective as well as the student's regarding the medications they have been
prescribed.

SUBJECT:    Re:Psychotropic meds for ADH     Date:  97-05-13 12:18:06 EST
From:  RhoLaren

Gin,

Please check your post. Did you make a typo when you wrote your son's IQ as
108? 180 would be in the superior range, 108 is within the average range, and
not considered within the realm of gifted, unless there were peculiar spikes
in some areas.

SUBJECT:    trying/ my mistake     Date:  97-05-13 13:10:48 EST
From:  GIN3153

  < My newest question to you all is.... My 6 year old will be starting 1st
grade in the fall.  His IQ ranked in the superior range at 108 and he seems
to be pretty much gifted in all areas. >

     Oops, the IQ on above was an error.  According to the WPPSI-R( Wechsler
Preschool and Primary Scale of Intelligence-Revised)   he scored as follows:

          Scale            IQ          %tile           IQ Range

     Performance      130           97             Very Superior
     Verbal               121           91             Superior
     Full Scale          130           97             Very Superior

Thanks!

Gin

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-05-13 21:26:41 EST
From:  HSSphsst

But what can you do when the teacher  "refuses" to their job. I to am a
teacher with a 6th grade child with ADD. Dealing with my son's school has
been a nightmare!  After fighting the school to get my son help in study
skills, organizational skills, and social skills,...I have now been told that
the school wants to hold him back because he does not have the skills listed
above.. academically he is passing. I am not sure what to do.I feel that the
retention would do more harm than good.   please send any advice you can.
HSSphsst

SUBJECT:    Re:Psychotropic meds for ADH     Date:  97-05-13 21:56:12 EST
From:  Ratatat

<180 would be in the superior range<

Actually, anything over 140/150 is considered Profoundly Gifted.  108 is high
average.  Superior would be 118 and up - or there abouts... depends on who
you talk to.  IQ is not always a measure of intelligence, talent or
giftedness.

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-05-13 21:59:04 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I have now been told that the school wants to hold him back because he does
not have the skills listed above.. academically he is passing. I am not sure
what to do.I feel that the retention would do more harm than good.   please
send any advice you can. >

Go into the Special Education Library and download the Menu of
Accommodations, and the file on Retention Research.

In both you will find your beliefs validated.  Retention is NOT an acceptable
intervention, especially at his age.  Instead, they need to find
interventions that support him in his areas of weakness.

Also, take a look at the files on the laws and policies.  Your child might
very well qualify for a Section 504 Education Plan where those accommodations
can be made an official part of his educational program.

SUBJECT:    Re:where to
start?     Date:  97-05-14 21:10:22 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Ratatat- Thanks so much!  I appreciate the info and will start looking for a
doctor.  How do I know if they're up to date on ADD?  I hate to just take out
the phone book and start calling and asking questions.  I don't know anyone
who has an ADD child so I can't ask for referrals.  I'm in Raleigh, NC if
anyone has suggestions.  Would the local CHADD chapter have names of
specialists in the area?

SUBJECT:    Re:How do you get an advocat     Date:  97-05-14 22:03:32 EST
From:  RSMama01

Why do you need an advocate?  Have you talked to the school psych.--resource
teacher--principal--district personnel?  I have found all of the above to be
helpful with my son who is now in high school.

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all
advocates...     Date:  97-05-14 22:08:35 EST
From:  RSMama01

I agree that holding him back in 6th grade may do more harm than good.  You
can always request a 504 plan to help set-up goals in organizational
skills.

SUBJECT:    Re:where to start?     Date:  97-05-15 04:39:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I appreciate the info and will start looking for a doctor.  How do I know if
they're up to date on ADD?>

The very best way is to use that information from Harvey Parker (one of the
founders of CHADD) to arm yourself with some of the right questions to ask
when you make phone calls.  I don't think going through the phone book is a
great way to proceed either.  Usually, personal referrals, word of mouth,
etc... if the best way.  CHADD Chapters usually don't provide referrals,
however, if you have a CHADD Chapter in your area, sometimes attending a
meeting and "networking" with a few parents there can be helpful.

Also, check with the school's special ed department and ask if they have any
suggestions. Afterall, they are  supposed to keep a list of indepdendent
evaluators for parents who request an IEE.  Can you check with your own
pediatrician?  Sometimes a major university that has a medical
school/teaching hospital will also have an outpatient resource.  Sometimes,
these can be the best because in order to teach they have to be very up to
date.

My main advise is to stay away from providers who say they treat in
non-traditional ways, such as with biofeedback, chiropractic, homeopathy,
etc.  Non of these methods have much, if any, solid clinical or scientific
proof that they work.  Often practitioners who go for these treatments have a
skewed view of the causes of ADD, and are not up on the very latest research
and treatment information.

Also, start reading.  There are some really good reading recommendations in
the Online Psych (that's the keyword too) area of AOL under ADD/Hyperactivity
section.

SUBJECT:    Re:my can of worms     Date:  97-05-15 04:56:53 EST
From:  Ratatat

<But the problem still is that we can not seem to get his medication right,
or so it seems, as hard to tell what is right when school is like this.  What
I think is good while at home and doing homework, etc doesn't seem to be
enough for what is needed at this school.  We have gone through huge ups and
downs with medications trying to get it right before we attempt to plan a 504
but am beginning to believe that maybe medication is not the only problem.>

All children with ADD need a multiple approach to dealing with their
symptoms.  One part is the medication, only ONE part.  Once you figure out
the right amounts, then it will help him to be optimally "available" to learn
in the school setting and his social and family settings.

Other necessary approaches are to provide a routine system of structure.
Kids with ADD need structure provided by the adults who manage his
environment.  They need to have things be predictible.  They need to know
beforehand what is expected of them, and when.  They need to have/know what
the plan is beforehand... and then they need to be coached, guided and gently
reminded of that plan - over and over - until it becomes habit.  They need
help planning projects, breaking large tasks into small ones, thinking
through later consequences of present actions; they need help with
organization, learning self-regulation to control impulsivity, and learning
systems to help with time management, how to keep a planner, etc.

They psychiatrist could ask the school teachers to fill out Conner's
Checklists weekly for a while to help you guage how the medication is working
at school.  For the school to do otherwise would be to interfer with your
child's needed medical management.  Sometimes, you might need the teachers to
provide observations from specific times of the day so that you can guage how
long the medication is lasting (each person metabolizes differently).  You'll
need to be pleasantly persisitent with the school, and it's tiresome when
they won't cooperate, but it's the only way you can get the information you
need.

SUBJECT:    Re:my can of worms     Date:  97-05-15 05:00:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

<     The school he is at has finally agreed to have him tested by them but
there is such a long waiting list that it will not happen until August or
September. >

The federal rules state that the once requested (I hope you did it in
writing, if not do so NOW), an evaluation to determine a child's eligibility
for educational support under either 504 or IDEA must be COMPLETED within a
reasonable amount of time.  Each state can have a specific timeline stating
what they determine to be reasonable.  Generally, based on many court cases
and rulings, that means that the testing should be done within 45 days.  Call
your state's Department of Education/Office of Special Education and ask for
a copy of the law so you can check your particular state's definitions.

And, if the school says they are backlogged, don't have enough staff, etc...
it's not considered a valid excuse.  They are obligated to do this testing in
a timely way, even if that means referring you out for the testing and paying
for it.  And, you would have some say in who the evaluator would is.



SUBJECT:    Re:my can of worms     Date:  97-05-15 05:03:01 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I am reluctant to give them a copy of his ADHD evaluation for fear of the
telling me that he has the ability and is just not applying himself.  Should
I give them a copy?>

After you have your current evaluation complete, you and the psychiatrist can
determine what information you want to give the school in addition to the
school's evaluation.  I think you will probably want to provide them with
some historical perspective on your son's condiditon, if for no other reason
than to show them that this has been a problem for a while.  Usually, the
more information you provide to people making decisions, the better the
decision will be.  The information you would provide the school would be
confidential and maintained in a file that has limited access that is
supposed to be regulated by a series of privacy rules.

SUBJECT:    Re:my can of
worms     Date:  97-05-15 05:06:52 EST
From:  Ratatat

<As you can tell I am not very good or knowledgable about standing up for my
son's rights and know that I need to but they also seem to twist things
around and I can't fully grasp what they say at the meetings until later when
I have had more time to think about it. >

Anytime you don't understand something, you have the right to ask for
clarification until you do understand it.  Part of the federal rules makes it
very clear that the schools are obligated to explain things to you in a way
that you understand what they are talking about.  And, if you need time to
digest something after a meeting, say so.  You don't have to sign  anything
if you don't comfortably understand what's going on.  Just tell them you need
a couple of days to sleep on the information, and maybe call back with a few
questions.  Also, it's often very helpful, for notetaking reasons, to use a
tape recorder (above board) at the meetings.  A great side benefit of a tape
recorder is that it tends to keep the school officials "honest" and keep
their behavior in check and professional.  You have an absolute right to use
a tape recorder at these meetings, so don't let them tell you otherwise....
many people can't listen, talk and take notes... and later recall complicated
information in any other way.  Don't be shy about this.

SUBJECT:    What is
reasonable?     Date:  97-05-16 16:10:47 EST
From:  R u Niz

Today I received an envelope with several Add checklists and a note from the
parent of one of my students.  This student was identified as ADD about two
years ago--during 6th grade.  Also during 6th grade this student was taking
Ritalin.

At the beginning of this year, the parents informed me that they didn't think
the Ritalin had any effect on their daughter and they no longer gave it to
her.  She is not ADHD.

Here is my question.  How many different ADD checklists is it appropriate to
ask one teacher to fill out?  Today I spent over an hour filling out the
Conner's checklist, the BES-2 checklist, The ADD checklist by Owens and
Owens, and one other checklist the name of which I have forgotten.  The note
from my student's mother asked me to deliver a checklist to each of her
daughter's teachers--which I did.  I understand why each teacher should fill
out a survey.  I'm just a little confused about the 4 surveys I was asked to
fill out.  As a SpEd teacher, I know the survey information is important and
I am not criticizing the parents.  I want to help in this process.  I did
feel that the surveys were redundant, tough.  Can anyone tell me if this is
standard procedure now ?

SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-16 21:45:07 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I mam surprised that the parent is asking your directly to fill out forms.
From my experience as a parent's attorney, most Districts go nuts if this is
done.  The Special Ed Director or Coordinator needs to coordinate this
effort.

On the other hand, if you fill it out, yopu can bet it will surface someday,
possibly to show a denail of FAPE by a "failure to child find" or "failure to
evaluate" when you had reasonable cause (the evals) to suspect disabling
condition under IDEA or 504.

SUBJECT:    Re:where to start?     Date:  97-05-17 06:21:31 EST
From:  JJForbes

I live in Cary, NC.  My neighbor is Cary Elementary's school psychologist.  I
asked her for referral names for dealing with ADD.  Also, one of my
daughter's friends was diagnosed with ADD (and her friend is EXTREMELY
gifted), so I asked his parents for a referral.

I don't know if I'm allowed to give out those names on this message board
(sure don't want to break the AOL rules...)

So, email me if you're interested in the names.  I took my daughter to one of
the psychologists on the referral list, and I was pleased.  My daughter did
participate in a double-blind study.

JJForbes

SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-17 12:57:21 EST
From:  R u Niz

There is no argument about the student receiving services.  She already is
diagnosed with a learning disability and receiving services.  Also, the ADD
checklists were not initiated by the parents;  they were sent in care of the
parents by the psychologist who is performing the outside evaluation.

Although the parents may not be satisfied with the diagnosis that was
determined by the public school evaluation, which by the way was completed
six years ago and re-evaluated last October, I honestly believe they are
satisfied with their child's progress.  She has made gains each year in the
areas affected by her learning disability--gains measured both on our testing
and standardized tests.  This is the second time in about three years that
they have sought outside testing, so obviously they still feel that they do
not have all the answers, and I respect that.  I was only wondering about the
current ADD evaluation process.  I wondered if filling out multiple
checklists by the main teacher is standard procedure now.  The checklists I
filled out repeated many of the same questions.  The procedure took over an
hour.  I did send one checklist to each of the other teachers who see this
student eveyday, and I know this was appropriate.  I guess I am just confused
as to the significance of repeating the same information four times by me.
If each checklist approached different aspects of the child it would make
perfect sense, but they didn't.

By the way, I feel I should repeat--I am happy to help in this process and am
trying to collect all the information ASAP as requested.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teacher
info     Date:  97-05-17 22:01:28 EST
From:  JLevy10160

I am in the process of designing a course and student manual for people in
the trades.  I am beginning to think that there are many students in the
trades that have some level of ADD or other challenge.  Do you have any
advice on the type (design) of written manuals and other media that could be
used to help teach considering the possible differences in learning styles?
One of my considerations is a video that makes the student move from manual
to video and back frequently.  Any suggestions?

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED
category      Date:  97-05-18 15:33:58 EST
From:  SANDW6880

Too often ADD/ADHD are placed in SED or as our state calls SBD classrooms.
The problem is too many students are not placed on meds or meds are not
monitored properly.  I agree -- it is an infringment on their rights
especially those who are academically on level or gifted.  Some success has
been seen in placing ADHD gifted kids in gifted classes.  Parents and docs
have to avocate for change -- many are misreading the IDEA as well.   I had
to fight to keep my son in sped and out of SBD this year when his meds were
not working.  Only could do so because I knew the laws and was an informed
parent/teacher.   Get parents informed so they can fight system.  Advocates
may help also and aggressive mainstreaming of SED students.  Good luck!

SUBJECT:
Re:ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-05-18 15:49:33 EST
From:  SANDW6880

Good for you!  I am concerned about the misinformation given to teachers
about working with ADHD children.  Being both a teacher and a parent of two
ADHD boys (now teens) I constantly am redirecting inappropriate teacher
accomodations to more successful ones for my children.  The following
suggestions do not work for most ADHD children:

1. allowing them to wander the class:  this is how many get into greater
trouble
2. reduction of assignments :  this becomes the greatest barrier to student's
on-going success later
3. taking walks to reduce fidgeting:  all this does is gives the teacher a
break, the child fidgets because that is part of their disability

These things are more successful

1. Reduce movement in class and structure how moving is done in class.
Routines that are predictable cause greater accountability in time.  Children
who know procedures will follow them more often than not.

2. Change the assignment rather than reduce: having child writing a chapter
summary rather than answering 25 questions reduces the work load slightly but
increases knowledge, understanding and accountability.

3. If teacher needs a break then arrange an activity the student does
routinely to provide the break:  reading to kinders or firsts.  If done
routinely both teacher and student get breaks from each other and student
esteem is in tact.

Note:  I would love to share more.  One thing I see a lot of is un-medicated
and improperly medicated students in school.  Drs are not monitoring students
they medicate and ADHD is not controlled by the doses given.  Too many
parents have an advisarial relationship with teacher as well.  Parents who
work with educators get the most for their kids.  Also, there is a lot of
misinterpetation of IDEA re:ADHD.

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-18 16:04:27 EST
From:  SANDW6880

Clearly the school is not working with you and I agree your son is being set
up to fail.  ADHD students often complain about work being boring-- hence
most of these kids need higher stimulus for learning not reduce mundane
repetitive work.  A 504 or IEP should include behavioral interventions and
you have a right to demand a review of either at this time if he already has
one.  Do that now!!  13 suspension may be against the 504 and IDEA laws that
protect ADHD students.  Clearly you have a case against the school for the
medication time change.  The risks of overdose or side-effects resulting from
inappropriate dosing is phenominal.  Only the Dr. can suggest changes.
Demand a 504 and referral for evaluation if your child does not currently
have one.   You can state they are discriminating on the basis of his
disability if they don't give you what you ask for -- get an avocate!!

SUBJECT:
Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-18 16:06:10 EST
From:  SANDW6880

Yes this is true under 504 too.  Sometimes the school will tell you 504 has
no power and actually it may have greater power than IDEA.

SUBJECT:    Re:What is
reasonable?     Date:  97-05-19 01:45:11 EST
From:  PeterCB55

 It is becoming increasingly common to see clinicians using overlapping, but
distinct types of symptoms checklists. Unfortunately, this does take more
time, no doubt about it. The pay off comes with increased screening
specificity (that is the ability to correctly identify children at risk for
ADD/LD or other problems). The idea is to use a "broad band" screening
instrument such as the CBCL, the PIC or the BASC, etc, that covers the
symptomatic water front (e.g., it asks about depression, anxiety, social
behavior, conduct problems, oppositional behavior and so on. These measures
ask a few questions about many types of problems including attention
symptoms). The purpose here is to determine whether there is enough to
warrent further investigation in any of a variety of problem areas. The
purpose of the second instrument is to go into more detail using a "narrow
band" symptom screener, that "only" explores symptoms of inattention,
impulsivity, and hyperactivity. The latter measure likely has more items,
therefore greater saturation of the "domain" of inattention. Commonly used
narrow band measures include the Attention Deficit Disorder Evaluation
Scales, the Connors Ratings forms, the ADHD Rating forms, Brown Attention
Activation Disorder Scales and the SNAP and so on. By pairing broad band with
narrow band instruments you gain the benefits of increased symptom coverage
and symptom specificity. A recent study found that by using both types of
measures the ability to correctly identify those with and without ADD
increased beyond the rates obtained by either type of measure alone.

However, an hour sounds to me like an excessive amount of time to have to
spend completing forms. Further, I am not sure what is gained by using more
than the two types of measures described above. Before you fill out more
forms, you might consider asking the parents for permission to speak with the
psychologist and ask them to explain the reasoning for the request.

Regards,

PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-19 06:11:41 EST
From:  Ratatat

<This student was identified as ADD about two years ago--during 6th grade.
Also during 6th grade this student was taking Ritalin.

At the beginning of this year, the parents informed me that they didn't think
the Ritalin had any effect on their daughter and they no longer gave it to
her.  She is not ADHD.>

I just want to comment on this first.  The "official" name of this disorder
is Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder.  It is then further
differentiated as predominately inattentive type or combined type
(hyperactivity/impulsivity).

Since the core problem is one of self-regulation because of a inbalance of
the neurotransmitter Dopamine, all types of AD/HD ususally respond to
stimulant medication therapy.  The primary reason that Ritalin (the first
tier medication) doesn't work is because the right dosage levels weren't
reached.  Usually, its because not enough is given - though, it can also be
because too much was given, or the timing was not micro-managed carefully.
If Ritalin doesn't work well there are other stimulants to try.

My analogy to my computer-lover son was that when one of the components of
his computer system isn't working right, the first thing you do is check the
cables/wiring to make sure the connections are secure.  That's about what the
medicine does... it's like making sure the cables are connectioned, and works
whether the AD/HD is with, or without, hyperactivity.

SUBJECT:    Re:What is
reasonable?     Date:  97-05-19 06:21:47 EST
From:  Ratatat

<How many different ADD checklists is it appropriate to ask one teacher to
fill out?  Today I spent over an hour filling out the Conner's checklist, the
BES-2 checklist, The ADD checklist by Owens and Owens, and one other
checklist the name of which I have forgotten>

When my daughter was evaluated the teachers were asked to fill out two
checklists, one was the long-form Conner's, and the other was called ACTeRs,
also long-form.  I would imagine that the two took about 30-45 minutes to
complete.  I don't know why this child required so many checklists.  The
redundancy can be helpful in validation of certain symptoms/behaviors, and
could provide helpful information.  I don't think it's the norm to require
that many checklists for feedback from the teachers, but if they are trying
to rule out or rule in a number of possible answers to the child's
difficulties, it could be needed.  Since this is the second time in under
three years this child has been evaluated they may be trying to use
cooberative measures to earlier testing or trying to avoid too much overlap
is measures.  I don't know.

SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-19 06:24:12 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I wondered if filling out multiple checklists by the main teacher is
standard procedure now. >

I wish there were a *standard* procedure for the evaluation of kids suspected
of having ADD, but there is not.  Different practitioners have different
methods.  I would be pleased if a set of guidelines existed that provided
common ground for evaluation procedures.

SUBJECT:    Re:can of worms, should i op     Date:  97-05-19 06:28:25 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Clearly you have a case against the school for the medication time change.
The risks of overdose or side-effects resulting from inappropriate dosing is
phenominal.  Only the Dr. can suggest changes.>

PLEASE!  At the levels administered for the treatment of ADHD, the chances of
"overdosing" a child on their stimulant medication by overlapping doses is
NIL.  Yes, their can be undesired consequences of inappropriate timing of
doses, but that's it.  Let's not endorse the myths that are already too
rampant now.

SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-19 18:03:37 EST
From:  R u Niz

Thank you Peter and Ratatat.  Your responses really clarified things for me.
Unfortunately, in this case, I doubt the parents will "allow" anyone from the
school to talk to the psychologist.  I really hope that they find the answers
they are looking for and that they will share these answers with us.

SUBJECT:
Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-19 18:21:27 EST
From:  Mo73

Let me add my 2 cents worth...As a Special Ed. teacher. I have filled out a
few checklists of my own.  Generally when I or the classroom teacher gets an
ADHD form we fill it out together and sign both of our names.  Sometimes we
consult with the OT and/or Speech Therapist if the child is currently
receiving those services.  Generally we all see the same behaviors with the
child, and agree on most of the ratings.  If not, we make notes about certain
behaviors being seen more/less in the small group/whole class setting.  Just
makes sense to do this together.  Save all of us time, and gives us a chance
to talk about the child/behaviors and add comments to the checklist.

SUBJECT:
Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-05-19 21:38:30 EST
From:  LAUB4

please e-mail me sample 504 plans for a middle school adhd boy with ld's in
all aud. memory areas, written language skills , comprehension....

SUBJECT:
Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-05-19 22:42:29 EST
From:  LAUB4

:et me expand... I have a adhd boy about to enter middle school, and I'm
terrified. He had a 504 plan written in 4th grade, and in 5th had a loving
teacher who really did not follow it, but seemed to poo-poo everything I was
concerned about, for example, him failing a math test because he got only one
days notice when his 504 stated advance notice and a study guide for tests.
She said,"don't worry"  the grade's not going in the grade book... I'm
concerned that #1- the 504 is not written well or strongly enough and #2
-should it be rewritten for middle school? If so , what should be different?
The school doesn't seem able or willing to help write a 504 that is a good
one. #3- How do I constantly keep up with  making sure it is followed, esp.
in middle school?
#4- How and where do I find an advocate in Md. (Howard County) Do they help
or antagonize?

I'm so afraid that my son has been coddled in elem school, and received
meaningless '' good grades" and the you know what will hit the fan in 6th
grade. He's a good kid, but not a gifted adhd kid at all- probably a low-
average ability kid with severe adhd and ld.   Please someone, make me feel
better by giving me some concrete ideas for next fall!!  Write here or E-mail
me at Laub4 on aol.

SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-20 08:51:34 EST
From:  Ratatat

< Just makes sense to do this together.  Save all of us time, and gives us a
chance to talk about the child/behaviors and add comments to the checklist.>

Maybe Peter can clarify this, but the checklists are supposed to be done
indepdently so as not to skew the responses.

I do know, however, that often written comments from a teacher about his/her
observations and experiences with a child often shed more light on the
situation that the checklists do.

SUBJECT:    Re:Calling all advocates...     Date:  97-05-20 08:55:26 EST
From:  Ratatat

There is a list of accommodations commonly used in regular education program
in the Special Education Library that you can download into your computer's
memory and print out later.  It think it might help.  To get there, use
Keyword:  Families, click on Education in the scroll box; then, scroll to
Special Education in the next window, and you will be at the Special
Education Forum main window.  Click on Libraries and check out what's in
there that can be helpful.  Lots, actually.

Meanwhile, you should get yourself a copy of the CHADD Educators Manual which
will walk you through everything the schools should be doing to support your
child.  There is also a good review of the laws in the appendices.  You can
order it from the ADD WareHouse Catlog at 1-800-233-9273.

SUBJECT:    Re:What is
reasonable?     Date:  97-05-20 16:04:07 EST
From:  R u Niz

The other teachers and I filled out the checklists independently.  It was
interesting to see that there were behaviors exhibited in the regular ed
classrooms which I didn't see in the Resource Room setting.  This may be an
example of the reason the checklists should not be filled out together.


SUBJECT:    Re:What is reasonable?     Date:  97-05-21 02:30:28 EST
From:  PeterCB55

The value in having several teachers from different subject areas complete
forms is to examine a child's performance in differing settings in varying
subjects. For example, by middle school, I usually sample at minimum two and
usually three teachers, (e.g., one strong subject area and two weaknesses or
the opposite). This way we anticipate variation in perspective and often
profit from it in terms of a broader grasp of a young persons strengths and
weaknesses.
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:Reasonable Accommodations     Date:  97-05-23 00:20:44 EST
From:  Jaf4828

I am looking for information on the internet on remedial readers,  I would
appreciate and information of a netsite that I could enter to learn more
about this topic,  it is very important to me.

Jaf

SUBJECT:    SpeechLanguage and ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-05-25 19:55:36 EST
From:  MareCash

I am a Speech Language Pathologist looking for some opinions. I work in an
elemetary school and have several kids with ADD on my caseload. I have a few
questions, stemming from my experiences this year with a few students. One
student is inthird grade and as far as school personnel were concerned , has
displyed ADHD symptom for several years. He qualified for speech services two
years ago(previous therapist). In Sept. when I started the job, he would just
throw himself into my room, couldn't sit, attend, or process much of what was
going on. Mom finally agreed to try Ritalin. This kid has made dramtic
improvements, both inclass and out. He has been dismissed from speech. All
scores on Test of Auditory Processing Skills, The Listening Test and many
others were years above his, mostly Standard scores in the 100's. Now - would
we have gone on with therapy with this kid for how many years, plugging
along, with little progress? What is the real role of the SLP here? I truly
believe he would have been in therapy through highschool if the meds had not
been given a chance. How can we clearly define what is a language problem,
what is a true processing problem. I am being overloaded with referrals this
year for kids who display ADD/ADHD symptoms, and many teachers feel I am the
answer. Any opinions? I have another little guy in 1st grade who has bee
diagnosed ADD, but parents do not want the meds. This child gets up and just
walks out of the classroom, therapy. The other day he walked out of the
school and was missing for hours. He has been in speech therapy since
preschool. Language scores are good. Pragamatiaclly he has major problems,
turn taking, topic maintenance, he cannot monitor himself at all. His scores
on the Test of Auditory Processing skills were half his age level - Standard
Scores inthe 50's. IQ high 80's. Great erader, will get resource room next
year for math. We are not even sure where to place him next year. So, what is
my role. I feel that this child cannot do more than he is doing now. But with
those processing scores, he WILL get therapy, because the parents think it is
the answer. Once again, where do we draw the line with these types of
cases?

SUBJECT:    RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-05-26 08:10:44 EST
From:  LGilb24634

My son is still not back in school.  We are waiting for him to be
educationally tested at school.  A meeting has been scheduled for June 16 to
decide what will be done.  It is now too late for him to finish 8th grade.
He will be 16 in June.  If he does not go on to 9th grade in the fall, I feel
we will lose him.  His psychologist seems to think his testing shows my son
is ready to go into 9th grade.  The program he was in this year was designed
for the students to complete 8th and 9th grade this year and be ready for the
10th grade this fall.  Of course, my son did not complete the program, but he
was about to move into the 9th grade when he was suspended in February.  His
grades were not great but he evidently learned something.

What can I expect from the June 16 meeting?  I want him to go into the 9th
grade in the fall.  I have gotten a hint that the school he attended this
year has indicated to the Specail Ed that my son's problems stem from drug
use.  (They harp on this with all student problems at this particular
school.)  My son has had 4 drug tests within the last year--all negative.  It
seems like the school system wants to put the blame on anything but their
failure to assist him with his education.  The school system orginally asked
that he be tested in the first grade.  They wanted him on Ritalin, then they
did nothing to assist him with ADD.  They have always known he had ADD.

What do I have the right to ask for in the meeting?  My advocate said that
since they seem to be cooperating we should wait until after the June 16
meeting to decide whether to contact Civil Liberties and/or a lawyer.  I have
been following the recent passage of the disabilities bill in Congress.
Children who bring guns and drugs to school may be suspended but still must
have alternate education.  My son has done nothing like that and he has been
provided no education since February because as the discipline officer said,
he was not under a 504 plan.  Who's fault is that?  I would appreciate some
thoughts on what I can expect and what I should ask for.  Thanks for all your
help.

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-05-26 08:52:52 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I am a little confused as to what happened and when.  Was your son expelled
before or after they decided to test him for spec ed eligbility?

In the hope that this may of benefit to you and to others with similar
problems, perhaps this will help.

Without providing specific advice to your situation, in general when I
represent students in cases like this I claim that the District failed in its
duty to "child find" (e.g. indentify disabled childrem) and "failed to
evaluate" when they had reasonable cause to do so.

Of course the facts myust support that a reasonable person would have
referred your child for testing.  Did the parent ever ask for testing or
other help from the schools?  If so, any documentation of the request?  Does
the parent have an offical diagnosis of ADD? Does the school have a copy of
it?  What was there for the teachers and adminstrators to observe.  Grade
problems?  Test problems?  Behavior problems?

Also, are the problems related to their environment - drugs, gangs, etc., or
related to some underlying emotional problems (depression, etc.).

It is generally a big problem to have a school apply special ed protection
AFTER the incident that is the cause for suspension.  But again, I only get
called in when its a big problem and the parents and their advocate) finally
figure out the school may not be the friend they thought them to be.

In summary., the best hope is to prove that the school knew or should have
known of the disabling condition prior to the disciplinary infraction.  Then
you can argue discipline should stop as eligibility was not proper at the
time of the incident, and the proper program was not in place at the time of
the incident (first two prongs of manifestaion hearing).

Finally, you will need to decide the wisdom of waiting until the meeting to
raise these issues.  The reality is that if it goes the way I think it will,
your only chance will be to go to ue process to appeal their decision to
proceed with the discipline.

Good luck.


SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-05-26 10:32:08 EST
From:  LGilb24634

BigJohnEsq--Sorry I didn't expand further.  I've posted messages concerning
my son within the last two months.  Yes, the school has been aware of his ADD
since first grade.  They initiated the testing and he was put on Ritalin.  He
did okay in grade school, though he still exhibited some of the same
behaviors, cutting up in class, fidgeting, putting his head down when he was
suppose to be working.  He started to fail in middle school.  In the 6th
grade he failed reading.  In the 7th grade he failed Social Studies.  In the
8th grade he fell apart.  I asked his English and Math teachers in the 8th
grade what they were doing for him since he has ADD (the fact that he has ADD
is in his school records).  They said they were doing nothing.  I asked if he
was suppose to take a pill and just be like everyone else and they said, yes.
I was very much unaware anything could be done.  I have only recently learned
of what can be done for ADD children.  My son was not under any special
educational or 504 plan even though he was failing.  The schools did not
initiate anything and I didn't know any better.  I just thought my child was
lazy and uncooperative. He was suspended before any of the latest testing was
begun.  But they have known for a fact that he was diagnosed with ADD when he
was in the first grade.  He was suspended for a compulsive act.  He rode home
with another student and her grandfather after being told not to.  The ride
home from school takes two hours because he has to go to another school to
change buses.  He has been frustrated with this transportation arrangement
all year because the two hours seems like forever to him.  The trip takes two
hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon.

This act was the final straw after a year of behavorial problems.  His main
problem at school has been putting his head down.  The school would give him
warnings then suspend him for a day.  He had to sign a contract with the
discipline officer in November that he would obey the teachers and do his
work.  He broke the contract so he was suspended for the year.

He was diagnosed with depression in November and in December he was in a
psychiatric hospital for two weeks for the depression.  He was put on Cylert
and Depekote and we have seen a great improvement in his behavior and mental
state at home since December.  The school was aware of his stay in the
hospital for depression.  He had started to do more work in school until the
incident in February.

My advocate has discovered that when he was diagnosed with ADD in first grade
a preliminary report was done.  A final report and placement was to have
followed.  The final report and placement was never done.  All of this is in
his school records.

I hope I've filled in the gaps.  I'll be glad to tell you more if needed.

Thank you.

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-05-26 22:13:28 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

Wow - I just wrapped up a case here in Mich with some similar facts.  There
the school was aware of ADD diagnosis and child's hosptialization for
depression and being on similar drugs to your child.  Additionally, there
were many instances of behavior problems in the files.  This District
expelled the student anyway.  Never evaluated them prior to the expulsion
(which is required in most states if "the school suspects or a reasonable
person would suspect" a disability.

After a big fight, we prevailed. Student reinstated.  Parent paid for
tutoring costs, etc. while expelled, paid additional new tutoring, payments
to psychologist, eligibility for IDEA, etc., etc.

I would contact your local P&A (Protection and Advocay) for the name of a
local attorney that specializes in this type of case.  They may be able to
help you as from the few facts it looks like a "failure to eval" and "failure
to child find" under 504, and possibly IDEA.

It will be interesting to see what the IDEA eval shows.  Remember, if yoiu
don't like the evalu, you can request an independant eval at District expense
(IEE).

I would also look over the past posts.  One of my fellow Michiganders -
RaTaTat has some excellent posts on procedure.

Good luck.

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-05-27 04:59:15 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I would contact your local P&A (Protection and Advocay) for the name of a
local attorney that specializes in this type of case.  They may be able to
help you as from the few facts it looks like a "failure to eval" and "failure
to child find" under 504, and possibly IDEA.>

I just want to echo BigJohn's advise here.  I think you need the power of an
attorney.  Though advocate's are important and can offer lots of assistance,
sometimes you need what an attorney can offer, namely the ability to file
certain kinds of motions with a court, and to request certain records, etc.

Sounds to me like you should is in severe violation of the "child find"
provisions which require the schools to identify, evaluate and SERVE children
with disabilities.  Both the Department of Education and the Office of Civil
Rights recognizes that ADD can be a disabling condition... which in your
son's case certainly proves to be the point.

Also, you son has the right to be schooled close to home.  Why is he being
bussed two hours away?

I'd urge you to download a file in the special education library on 504
Policy and Procedures.  There have been some good postings and information
exchanged there with some information you might need to understand this
puzzle.

Again, I really think it sounds like you should be locating a lawyer who
knows special education and civil rights law.

SUBJECT:    ADD and 504     Date:  97-05-27 16:51:43 EST
From:  IRA 721

I have been trying to find out as much as possible about 504--but to my
surprise the powers that be don't want classroon teachers to be able to help
parents---so if aanyone out there can help it would be greatly
appreciated

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD and 504     Date:  97-05-27 19:39:31 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I have been trying to find out as much as possible about 504--but to my
surprise the powers that be don't want classroon teachers to be able to help
parents---so if aanyone out there can help it would be greatly appreciated>

There is a ton of information already here.  You'll have to go back and read
from the first posts, plus check out the special ed library for logged and
archived messages from the first folder.  In sum, its all quite
comprehensive.

SUBJECT:    Re:chewing     Date:  97-05-29 10:00:31 EST
From:  Barefootjt

I know that this may sound a bit crazy-too simple, but some of these chewing
behaviors can be due to a vitamin/mineral deficiency. How is his diet? I know
my kids would live on cookies and coke if they could:) It may be worth a try
to give him a vitamin/mineral supplement regularly for several months and see
if there is an improvement. I hope that the problem is that simple. Good
Luck!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD child with auditory p     Date:  97-06-02 15:33:41 EST
From:  ABasner99

I have recently heard of a therapy called "auditory integration therapy" it
is suppose to help
people with ADD.  It uses modulated music to help children.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD
child with auditory p     Date:  97-06-03 06:43:04 EST
From:  SPCHRGM

AIT is controversial at best and is a source of ongoing debate with SLP's and
audiologists. Please investigate thoroughly....I feel this would be a rather
extreme measure for a child with CAPD when so many other therapies are out
there....Regina

SUBJECT:    change of placement     Date:  97-06-03 20:50:45 EST
From:  GIN3153

     Do  in-school suspensions fall into the category of "change of
placement?"  We do not yet have an IEP or 504 in place.  We are in SC and
currently waiting on the school to schedule an educational evaluation, which
they say may not be until Sept or Aug( am waiting on receiving State Laws to
verify what time lines enforced).  Son has ADHD, diagnosed by dr more than 3
years ago so school needs recent eval. in order to see what accomodations are
needed and if qualifies for any resource help.
This school has really twisted us around so the dr(our advocate) and I are
trying to get our ducks in a row for next year.  Is the "change of placement"
under the Section 504 or IDEA? I  have the CHADD Educators manual but haven't
crossed this law yet and think I need to know about it as son has been
suspended about 14 times this year alone.  Thanks for all the help you have
been so far, am sure I will have more to ask!!!

gin

SUBJECT:    Re:change of placement     Date:  97-06-04 00:15:35 EST
From:  CHSMom

Change of placement is under an IEP.  What grade is your son in?  He's been
suspended 14 times and the school never initiated an evaluation?!  Actually,
I don't know why I am surprised.  Re the timeline - it depends when the
evaluation was requested.  If it was within 30 days of the end of the school
year, the school can wait until the beginning of the next school year.  It's
good to have the doctor as your son's advocate. But he can only speak to his
ADD, not his educational needs.  You might also consider getting someone to
help with that area.  Ask your local CHADD chapter if they have someone who
regularly attends IEPs with parents.  Good luck.

SUBJECT:    Re:change of
placement     Date:  97-06-04 18:46:04 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

District's have an oblgation under IDEA (spec ed) to evaluate children they
'reasonably suspect" are in need of special educational services.  This is
called "child find".

The question then what signs were present that would cause a reasonable
person to evaluate.  ADD is one (assuming the District was informed by
diagnosis or medication plan), poor grades is another, misbehavior is a
third, and so on.

If they failed to evaluate when they should have, you may have a case for a
claim of compensatiry education under IDEA for services he should have
recieved some time ago, but are only being provided now.

In general, I would insist they evaluate him for all disabilities, EI, POHI
(for his ADD) , LD, etc., you never know which door may lead you into the
spec ed eligibility.

For 504 its different - would a reasonable person have concluded his ADD was
severe enough to "significantly impact" his ability to recieve an education.
Again, grades, misconduct, etc. are the "sign posts".

I would call my local P&A office for more information, as it is possible the
only way you are going to receive back services could be through a due
process hearing.

Also, some states have distinct time lines for evals, but as pointed out,
they run on a "school day" calendar.

Hope this helps.

SUBJECT:    Re:change of placement     Date:  97-06-05 08:31:05 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I  have the CHADD Educators manual but haven't crossed this law yet and
think I need to know about it as son has been suspended about 14 times this
year alone.>

The change of placement rule means that the child's education placement was
changed for a total of 10 days.  Those 10 days are calculated when the days
are consecutive, or from repeatedly removing a child from his regular
educational placement over a period of time, showing a pattern of removal.
In-house suspension *may* be considered a change of placement.  Example:  a
child receives in-house suspensions that last 1/2 or a full day, repeatedly,
for related reasons, over a period of time (usually within a school year) and
that time away from the regular educational placement of the child adds up to
10 days.

Can you tell us the history of the in-house suspensions?  How long each was,
the reasons for them, etc.?

Once a child who the school suspects could have a disabilty that might
explain the reasons for the change of placement, they are obligated to
investigate/evaluate the child and his educational program in order to
determine if the child has an un-addressed disability that needs
accommodation.

Once a school "changes placement" for a child who is reasonably suspected of
having a disability that could be interfering with their education and
relates to the reason for the change in placement (10 days away from their
regular placement), the school is obligated to conduct an evaluation BEFORE
the change of placement.

In other words, when the 10 day limit is met, the child must be returned to
their regular programming UNTIL after a determination is made about what this
child needs and an appropriate placement is determined from a review of all
evaluative data.

You should check with your State's Protection and Advocacy Office, Office of
Civil Rights, and/or the Dept. of Education to find out about your state's
rules and regulations regarding the timelines.

Generally, the federal laws say that the child must be evaluated within a
"reasonable time" from when the child is suspected and referred for having a
disability.  They leave it up to the state to determine what reasonable is,
but generally, the federal rules expect "reasonable" to be within about 45
days (summer or no summer).

SUBJECT:    Re:change of placement     Date:  97-06-05 19:18:25 EST
From:  R u Niz

I believe the "summer or no summer" applies in Illinois.  End of the year
evaluations are "discouraged" by our region (Chicago), but I believe if the
request is received in writing the evaluation is done by regional staff over
the summer.  You should check the rules in your area.

Also, doesn't the new IDEA extend suspension to 45 days before a change of
placement has occurred?

SUBJECT:    Re:change of placement     Date:  97-06-06 06:23:12 EST
From:  Ratatat

<<Also, doesn't the new IDEA extend suspension to 45 days before a change of
placement has occurred?>>

Maybe BigJohnEsq will stop by and clarify this.  My understanding is that
those new rules regarding suspensions and expulsions of students with
disabilities relates only to those students who are violent or truly
dangerous.

SUBJECT:    Re:change of placement     Date:  97-06-06 08:52:04 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I have the new IDEA law and commentaries from the Senate Committee at the
office and I am at home - but if I remember correctly RaTaTat is correct -
the new 45 day rule only can kick in if the District can show by "clear and
convincing" evidence that the student is dangerous, an illegal weapon or
illegal drug se/possession.  Even then, there are procedural safeguards that
kick in.  Also, educational services must continue.

The problem I am seeing in the commentaries coming from the school attorneys
is that they will claim it is within their power to do an alt ed placement as
there has not been any loss of "educational services", then they define alt
ed to include "homebound" placement.

In the matter at hand, the problem is the debate wheter the 10 day rule (I
understand that in some states this is not a hard and fast rule) applies
before eligibility for IDEA or 504 is determined.  If the school has the
famous "reasonable cause" to suspect at the time of the repeated suspensions
and at a later date the child is found IDEA eligible or eligible for a 504
"accomodation" plan, then you can argue you should have known this long ago.

Also, the new rules make it much tougher to claim due process for a student
who is suspended/expelled and was under evalaution or eligibility prior to
the incident that resulted in the suspension.

In any case, I'll chekc my notes and advance publications this PM and reply
more specifically later today.

PS  Did Clinton sign the new law on Wenesday?  If so, I understand parts of
the law, including revisions in procedure are to take immediate effect, even
though administrative rules will be 6-12 months behind.    That will be fun,
as the states won't write their rules unti after the feds, and everyone will
be groping in the dark until then.

SUBJECT:    homepage-parents/educators     Date:  97-06-06 19:15:45 EST
From:  JPETORCH

I have found that the homepage at http://www.erickson-learning.com has some
great information on learning disorders, including training for teacher,
parents and school systems, consulting, and individualized tutoring.

Jim

SUBJECT:    Re:SpeechLanguage and ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-06-06 20:42:16 EST
From:  Willsons

You have raised an interesting question. I don't necessarily have an answer.
I find myself in the same situation. As long as parents choose to not
medicate and scores remain discrepant, I expect we will be adding these
children to our caseloads. We can turn this into a positive by using that
opportunity to discriminately observe and document this child's behavior. We
might be able to provide insight into the true nature of the problem. It will
also give the school some data for comparison when/if medication is started.
I agree, our caseloads are overloaded. We're all frustrated because we cannot
deliver the quality of therapy we'd like to due to this overload.
Secondly, I worry a lot about what the future holds for these children . . .
a child in 1st grade walks out of school and can't be found for hours! . . .
I have a student who is of pre-teen age who is often out-of-control and
threatening to others (no meds). Indeed, as you said, a child who could be
helped, might be receiving the wrong kind of help right up through
highschool. What damage has been done by then?!
I'm not advocating meds. I just agree with you. We need to look closely at
this picture.
Thanks for raising the issue.

SUBJECT:    New IDEA Laws re: Suspension     Date:  97-06-07 12:23:10 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I was asked to comment on the "discipline" section of the new IDEA law that
should have been signed into law this week.  What follows is my personal
analysis of this section of the law in general, and not specific legal advice
to any particular sets of facts.  Also, as the Dept of Ed and the courts have
not had their say yet, this is a whole new area that is ripe for
interpretation.

First, it is assumed the the child being disciplined already has been found
eligible for special ed under one of the specific catagories (LD, SEI, POHI,
etc.).  If not, a whole other set of rules kick in.

Next, the District can place student in alt ed placement or suspend for up to
10 days.  Some feel this is a consecutive 10 days, others say it is 10 days
total in one school year.  We'll see.  All the parents procedural safeguards
also kick in.  If District feels it can prove "beyond a preponderence of the
evidence" that the student is dangerous it can go to a hearing officer and
request an injunction allowing a changed placement, likely to homebound.

The elements of dangerous are:  (1) substantial liklehood of injury; and (2)
school took reasonable steps to minimize harm, and, (3) current IEP is
approriate, and (4)  the proposed interim setting allows child to continue to
receive IEP services.

For both a +10 day standard suspension and a 45 day weapon suspension, (that
is any proceeding that will go more than 10 days) within the first 10 days
the local ed agency must conduct a "functional behavior assessment and
implement a "behavior intervention plan" as developed by the IEP Committee.
A "manifestion determination" must also be held.

See next post for what is involved with the "manifestation determination"

JB
If a dangerous weapon (defined by federal law) or illegal drugs (what about
the "zero tolerance" rules on handing out any drug including "over the
counter"??), principal can place in interim alternative setting, as
determined by IEP team, for up to 45 days.  Child returns to regular
placement on day 46.

SUBJECT:    Manifestation Determination      Date:  97-06-07 12:38:05 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

continued -

Under the new IDEA law, the IEP Committee must consider: (1)  Evaluation and
diagnostic results - both the schools and independent.  (2)  Classroom and
other behavior observations.  (3)  The current IEP and current placement.

Before they can find that the misconduct is not a manifestion of the
disability, the Committee must determine:  (1)  IEP and placement were
appropriate and did not contribute to misconduct.  (2)  The District provided
whatever aids and services were required.  (3)  Behavioral interventions were
provided prior to suspension/expulsion, and (4)  the child disability did not
prevent them from understanding their behavior and the disability did not
prevent them from controlling the behavior.

If no manifestation, student is disciplined as any other student, except
continues to receive spec ed services (although the team may change what is
delivered and where).   If a manifestation, no further change in placement is
allow, and child should return to the current (or revised) IEP placement.

Of course, the parent can take any of these decisions to what is termed an
"expedited" due process hearing.

All in all, a lot of what exsisted before, with broader coverage for weapons
(used to be guns only) and now drugs.  The tighter standard of evidence of
dangerous will help students.  As the new law forces participation in what is
called "general education", I can't reconcile that requirement with an
expulsion.  We'll have to see how this one works itself out.

It will be more difficult process if the student is not eligible for IDEA at
the time of the misconduct, but if the parent can prove the "District knew or
should have known" of the disability prior to the misconduct (poor grades,
prior misconduct, ADD diagnosis, medications, etc.), I would argue that all
the protections kick in.

I expect that schools will need to become very adept in writing behavior
intervention plans that I would argue require a specialist to write.  I also
am afraid that the alternative schools will become a dumping ground for all
types of students, including spec ed students, who do not fit the standard
school mold.

Hope this helps.

JB

SUBJECT:    Re:SpeechLanguage and ADD/AD     Date:  97-06-07 18:50:49 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I find myself in the same situation. As long as parents choose to not
medicate and scores remain discrepant, I expect we will be adding these
children to our caseloads.>

<I'm not advocating meds. I just agree with you. We need to look closely at
this picture.
Thanks for raising the issue.>

I *do* advocate proper medical treatments as PART of a more comprehensive,
global plan for a student.  However, a student on medication still NEEDS
supports and skill instruction.  No child should *only* be medicated; and/or
if on medication and showing significant improvement because of that alone,
the other needs still should be addressed.

Medication offers an opportunity to teach the strategies and skills these
kids need.  Medication alone should never be considered sufficient
intervention.

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-07 18:54:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

BigJohn,

Thanks.  Guess what?  Today in the mail I received a "trial subscription" for
LRP's Special Educator with reviews of all these issues in it.  I haven't
read through it yet, but once I do I'll post some of that here too.

I'm not sure why they picked me, but I'll be getting TSE for the next several
months free.  Quite a deal given that the annual subscription rate is
$225.

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-08 08:35:53 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I am a subscriber to both LRP's "special educator" and their pub for lawyer's
- total cost around $350/year. Both very good pubs - BUT highly biased
towards schools as I am toild they make up 90% of their subscribers.

On the other hand, the little tricks and info LRP pubs have have saved me
more than once when a school makes what seems is a friendly and innocent move
that is anything but that.

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-08 09:11:23 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Both very good pubs - BUT highly biased towards schools as I am toild they
make up 90% of their subscribers.>

This adds to the mystery of why after more than 20 YEARS the schools still
can't seem to operate within the regulations of IDEA and Section 504.  They
are certainly getting the information, right?

So what gives?

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-08 19:40:07 EST
From:  RhoLaren

Ratatat,

I think it is the monetary issue that prevents many school systems from
applying the regs. That is assuming no malice, and I cannot assume there is
not. Remember, school systems are not telling teachers, special ed or
regular, what the real regs are. The schools want to avoid placement where
ever possible, so they can save money. Now, this leads to some wacky
discipline. In order to avoid having to evaluate, and maybe place a student
in a more intensive environment, schools admins are dealing with discipline
in very ineffective ways, they never want to cross the threshold of the 10
days suspensions maybe kicking in the IDEA process. The feds MUST fund in
order to stop some of the abuses.

SUBJECT:    Starting somewhere     Date:  97-06-08 21:07:43 EST
From:  GIN3153

I wrote the above letter asking about "Change of Placement."  My son, ADHD
and recently diagnosed as ODD as well, currently has no IEP or 504 in place.
He has received 14 referrals resulting in 12 days of suspension.  Two of
those were out-of-school, and the other 10 were in-school.  Once, he was also
required to sit in the office for a day and a half when he didn't bother to
tell us about his suspension, he had told the school that I knew about it so
they made him wait in the office(no school work to do) while they assumed I
would be calling or stopping by to talk with them.  They had been told
numerous times to call if there was a problem.  They never did, my son
finally told me so that he could return to class!  The cause of the
suspensions ranged from fighting, insubordination, intimidation, profanity,
posession of cigarettes, etc.  He did not, luckily, hurt anyone and usually
the fights were instigated by others. His grades also went from honor roll
for first two nine weeks to well below and we were almost faced with summer
school. Currently, he has not been tested by the school.  We have started the
process, or so we thought, but have found out (all on our own) that we had
not signed permission forms for the testing to be done, only for the
evaluation process to begin to see if he NEEDS tested!  Yet again, noone
bothered to inform us of the process or steps and so after contacting the
State Board of Education, with their recommendation I have sat down and wrote
a letter to our district Director of Education to request the permission form
as quickly as possible and outline in the letter why we felt that immediate
testing was imperative. I sent a copy of the letter to the principal, the 504
coordinator of the school, our doctor, and to the State Board of Education.
I also used some of the forum's advice and have developed an Advocacy
Notebook, three in fact, one for each child's personal school information,
and one for legal information and advice.  They are quickly filling up
already!  GREAT IDEA!!!  I do not know if my son's suspensions are part of a
violation of his rights or not, but intend to look into that further as there
is much more the school has twisted around us ( look at the CAN OF WORMS
posting, that' mine also!)  We are well on the way of becoming knowledgeable
advocates for our son but still have a long way to go.  Just wanted to let
you know that this forum has been GREAT help to us as well as the chats in
teaching us what information to look for in order to help our children.
Thanks to all and take care!

[e-mail]

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-08 21:43:51 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Remember, school systems are not telling teachers, special ed or regular,
what the real regs are. The schools want to avoid placement where ever
possible, so they can save money.>

Rho,  You and I have had this discussion before.  1) Most of what these kids
need doesn't cost anything. 2) ducking ones affirmative obligations is a
violation of federal law - regardless of the reason, and 3) if the
administration has active policy, as you suggest, to avoid informing parents
and meeting students needs then they are in violation of the granddaddy of
all civil rights laws - Section 1983.


SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-09 07:58:50 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

It is my opinion that from a global perspective the problem goes even deeper.
Schools just do not want to accept responsibility for educating our youth.
They wrap this up in a "I didn't mean any harm".  Then, here comes the spec
ed student with all kinds of law and procedures that force schools to look at
the student as an individual, and really look at their education.  What is
working, what isn't.  Exccept for responding to state and national test data,
this rarely happens with general ed students.

I always seem to get this funny feeling that the District feels it is doing
the parent a big favor in providing any added services.   Is it the cost -
maybe.  But I think it may be just as much due to the fact that there is a
degree of accontability tied into to special ed.

Given the big push to treat educators as "professionals", I wonder of any
state will have the guts to recognize the tort of "educational malpractice"
(e.g a recognized and licensed professional failing to meet the minimal
recognized standard of performance for that field).  Boy, that would change
things quickly for both general and spec ed students.

Just a thought.

SUBJECT:    Re:Starting somewhere     Date:  97-06-09 08:14:50 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

While not providing specific advice, in general you have picked up on the key
issue.  In these type of cases, you must find out if your child is eligible
for spec ed services under one of the IDEA catagories, and if not, is the
child's disability severe enough to require accomodations under 504.

If eligible under either IDEA or 504, you then work your way backwards to see
if and when the District reasonably "knew or should have known" of the
disabling condition.  If a reasonable educator, reading all the "signs" would
have had the child evaluated (eg a "referral) and if the disability is the
type that would have been revealed in the evaluation, then you can ask for
compensatory educational services (give the student now what your should have
given them then), and if harm has been done (hard to measure), money damages
under 504.

But the first step is to FORCE the evaluation process to happen, and as you
have discovered the clock does not start to run until you sign the
"permission to evaluate" forms.  Now, the District can argue with you whether
or not they need to evaluate your child at all, BUT if they refuse to
evaluate after you have formally requested an evaluation, that is an issue
you can request a hearing on.  My expereince is that rather than risk a
hearing and beiong told to evalaute, the District will go ahead and evaluate.
Also, once the persmission form is signed, the District under current law has
30-45 school days (depends on each state) to conduct the eval, issues a
multidiciplinary report, and present the report to a Commmittee to decide
eligibility, and if eligible, design an individualized program.

P.S.  The fact is that rarely is this process explained to parents - and as
RaTaTat points out, it is not due to a lack of knowledge and resources.
Seminars for school people and school attorneys go on every year (just was a
big one by LRP in San Diego that had thousands school pople at it at
taxpayers expenses learning the new IDEA law), however, very little is
explained to parents.  My experience is that 9 out of 10 clients have no idea
what their rights are.

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re:     Date:  97-06-09 08:21:22 EST
From:  Lmazzola

<<I always seem to get this funny feeling that the District feels it is doing
the parent a big favor in providing any added services.   Is it the cost -
maybe.  But I think it may be just as much due to the fact that there is a
degree of accontability tied into to special ed.>>

Add to this the "nerve" of mere parents to QUESTION the decisions about
educating their children.

After looking at the MANY factors involved in my child's case, I have come to
the conclusion that the disagreements with the school aren't because of the
"cost", "setting a precedent" or not enough staff, it is just an "ego" thing.
I live in one of the wealthiest communities in Massachusetts, the programs or
instruction I was requesting are already in place, but for other children and
they have plenty of special ed staff, but they stiil insist that "pull-out"
is the ONLY way to provide services. They have been ??educating?? special ed
kids the same way for 20 years, and who am I to come in and tell them that
their way is not working!! To actually request that they try something
different, to comply with the laws. It's all very frustrating!

SUBJECT:    Re:New
IDEA Laws re:504     Date:  97-06-09 17:24:03 EST
From:  MDuran3492

I can tell there are several students who have been mentioned who really need
504s.  I can also tell there are really some concerned, caring parents here
who really do care about their students education.  I have also heard that
schools do not care and teachers do not listen.  If you talk to the teacher
in a kind considerate way that does not put them down (because you know they
don't know anything about ADHD), you will probably find someone who is quite
willing to work with you.  However you do need to realize one thing.  For
whatever reason (maybe too much TV, too few books, too much stimulation,
genetics), we have alot of students who are quite physically/squirmy.  What
parents do not realize is that in a class of 30 students, we may have up to 5
or 6 students who might qualify under some physicall active label and many of
those labels may not be ADHD.  Just because you are hyper, you are not ADHD.
Also it is unrealistic to expect an individual program for 30 students in a
classroom.  Also the education of a child is not just dependent on the
teacher.  Some parents (who are probably not on this message board) expect
schools to do everything (feed, cloth, provide books, pencils, etc.) and that
makes our job SO much harder.  I have been a teacher for about 15 years and I
can truly state for whatever reason that we have NEVER had so many  students
who have been hyper, etc. EVER.  Also we are also aware that several parents
at our school (we have been told by them) are using the ADHD label to get
social security disability and feel the school should pay the the ritalin
(even though they do have health insurance).  We are also having parents
asking for 504s so their children who are very disruptive and misbehave (and
most of these students are not ADHD-- and are not labeled by anyone as
ADHD..and they have been evaluated by sp. ed staff) won't be suspended
because it is inconvient for them to stay home from work.
Those parents of the true ADHD students, I truly applaud you for your efforts
and concerns with your children.  However instead of saying all teachers are
unsympathetic and don't know about ADHD students, you might want to give us a
chance.  Also you might want to because a teacher aide/parapro in a school.
I think you will be amazed at the things teachers really do.  Also every
parent who has had ADHD concerns about their child, I do refer it as a parent
request for testing.  We do it ASAP.  I am legally obligated and actually
prefer getting them that way because they are processed faster by sp. ed.
However we are finding our that many of these children are NOT ADHD, but they
have behavior problems that need to be treated in another way and not with
ADHD medicine. They may need to see a psychiatrist (at parent expense with
your health insurance-- it works better that way) because your child may have
a chemical balance and may be bi-polar.  What you think is ADHD, may be
something else that can be treated medically with drugs and with
counseling(strategies).  The lady whose son has been suspended that many
times might want to check into that.  You can be ADHD and bi-polar.  Again
good luck and thanks for trying to keep you child in school.

SUBJECT:    Re:New
IDEA Laws re:504     Date:  97-06-09 21:38:35 EST
From:  GIN3153

     First of all, yes, I am a concerned, caring parent.  I have TRIED to
talk with the teachers, counselor, assistant principal, and principal in the
most kind and considerate way possible in order to get help for my son.  They
just don't listen at this particular school.  I do not feel ALL teachers or
school staff members are this way, only some and unfortunately those are the
ones that give a bad name to the rest.  If we do not address them firmly with
the needs of our children, yes, legally if necessary, they will continue to
make a bad name for those teachers and staff members who really care as well
as cause a negative impact on our children.
     Secondly, while you may feel some parents don't want their child
suspended because of the inconvenience of staying home, maybe some schools
are suspending students because they are not willing to accept and deal with
the child's handicap???  Just a thought!  I, myself, can be home if my child
is suspended or not, but prefer him to be educated!   I find that many times,
adults, parents, teachers, etc... expect even non-ADHD children to act like
"little adults" rather than children, i.e. accept responsibility, don't
argue, sit still, raise your hand, don't get out of your seat, keep your room
clean, don't tell a lie, make wise choices, think before you speak, etc...
While these are all important things that children must learn, they are still
"children" and I think we all, parents and schoosl alike, expect too of them
sometimes.
     Lastly, my son has been diagnosed properly as ADHD and is on medication
and receiving counseling from a private psychiatrist.  However, neither of
those are the answer alone for the help he needs with his education.  I am
very aware of the quickness of some dr's to label a child as ADHD as my
youngest son, also ADHD(I have three of them!) was first seen by a dr that
talked with us for 5 minutes and proceeded to write a script for ritalin.  I
found this very offensive and so went to a learning center that specialized
in testing and had him tested the right way.  While the results were the
same, it was a matter of knowing for sure that something else was not the
cause of his behavior and learning difficulties.
     You sound like a very caring teacher and I wish there were more like you
in my son's school.  However, please understand that we are not trying to
ATTACK anyone, we are only trying to get the schools to address the needs of
our children.  Unfortunate for you, there are teachers and staff that do not
understand that and so all teachers end up feeling they have been LABELED as
bad teachers.  Try to understand that many of our children have been LABELED
as bad kids as well because others do not understand their disability and are
not willing to learn.  It doesn't feel so good to be stuck with a label, does
it?  I apologize now if I have offended you in any way as I don't wish to put
a label on anyone, including you.  I myself am ADD, and hate the label.
Again, I wish there were more teachers like you that were willing to learn
about the disabilities they will face in their students!  Take care and
spread your knowledge to others!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-06-10 09:58:07 EST
From:  RhoLaren

Ratatat,

I am not arguing with you. I am telling you about what some realities are.
Please, do not shoot the messenger for the message. You may be right, that
they are in violation. But, some districts would rather play the odds. That
is not an argument, that is what is occuring.

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re:
Suspens     Date:  97-06-10 10:01:15 EST
From:  RhoLaren

BigJohn,,,,
I have been saying for years, that what is needed is to hold teachers
accountable. Do not jump all over me, teachers. If we knew that we would be
sued, we would not stand for some of the abominable conditions that we, and
the students, put up with. We know what is ludicrous. The admin, and some
nutty parents, keep us enabling stupidity. Until we know our " you know what"
will be in a sling, we will allow people to brow beat us into providing
substandard education. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

SUBJECT:
Re:Starting somewhere     Date:  97-06-10 10:04:07 EST
From:  RhoLaren

Big John,

You are right and you are wrong about knowledge being disseminated. Yes,
seminars occur. But, who is attending? Is it every classroom teacher from the
school districts? Is it certain select people from the school district who
go, and then decide which information to "allow" to their employees? Please,
I know you do not like to hear this, but it is on target. As a matter of
fact, I have been communicating with teachers who did not know what IDEA
meant. Now, refute that. I have tried to tell people on these boards what
some of the realities are. And, keeping school people in ignorance is a
biggie.

SUBJECT:    Re:Starting somewhere     Date:  97-06-10 19:09:34 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

You are absolutely correct.  All I see is the District attorneys,
superintendents and special ed directors (look at the locations of the
seminars).  What is sad is that the information that is gathered at tax payer
expense is not passed out.

For example, in my home District, as a ex-school board member I have always
tried to maintain good relations with the current admin, school board and
union officals.  Well - the contract call for "x" number of teacher
"in-service" days.  Three times I have offered, at no charge, to present on
504 and IDEA from a parent and parent's attorney perspective.  Think I have
had any takers.  NO.  It seems that the powers that be want to keep the staff
in the dark.  It makes no sense as ignorance of the law is no excuse (unless
you want to get into a debate wheter negative intent v plain negligence is
needed for 504 money damages).

That is one reason that I post on this board - I know a lot of teachers and
administrators read it.  I keep thinking it may benefit them to learn a
little from the perspective of what can be some very frustrated parents, who
by the time I get involved are pretty disillusioned with the how the system
works.



SUBJECT:    Re:Starting somewhere     Date:  97-06-10 19:43:42 EST
From:  RhoLaren

Big John,

Thank you. I have tried to tell some people that the teachers are in the
dark, but they refuse to listen. You are correct.

SUBJECT:    School Help     Date:  97-06-10 22:41:17 EST
From:  SistahGyrl

I am moving to Maryland at the end of this summer and am considering the
Tacoma Park and/or University Park areas to live.  Does anyone have
experience with these school systems relative to ADDH junior high schoolers?
My son will be entering seventh grade after a hellish sixth grade year in a
Mass. school during which he was moved to a self-contained classroom after
spending his elementary school years in an inclusion program.  What agency
can I contact to get school comparison info?

SUBJECT:    Re:Starting somewhere     Date:  97-06-10 23:07:08 EST
From:  Ratatat

<ignorance of the law is no excuse >

The point I keep trying to make.

If you go through a red light, get pulled over and tell the cop you didn't
know there was a traffic signal at that corner - you'd still get a
ticket.

SUBJECT:    Bad ADHD news article     Date:  97-06-11 01:36:24 EST
From:  Daybr88k

I wanted to bring your attention to some articles that are now appearing
across the country concerning ADHD--they are more of the destructive
misleading stuff that frequently appears for various reasons.  I guess you
have to be a parent to understand all this--this is real tragedy stuff and
yet the majority of journalists continue to practice inflammatory journalism
by reporting how ADHD is just a trend or excuse for bad behavior!!

I believe all of us live in different parts of the country--have any of you
seen a recent article which headlined with "Ritalin "wires" millions"?  It is
a 3 part series which is running June 9, 10, and 11.  I haven't seen the 3rd
article yet but I have inside information that it will not get any
better--today's article claimed that "Americans would be horrified to learn
that 2 million children across this nation are being given cocaine by their
parents and doctors to make them behave better in school."  THIS IS THE EXACT
QUOTE TAKEN FROM THE LEAD PARAGRAPH  in today's article.  The reason I have
inside information is that I was contacted by a reporter at the Rocky
Mountain News to get my angle as a parent of a child with ADHD, and also as a
school nurse.  This occured last Thursday--he said this article would run in
24 newspapers across the country next July--but there it was yesterday.  I
called this particular reporter Mr. Berney Morson to ask what was going on
because he assured me this would be a "fair" article and he told me the
Scripps Howard News Service decided to hurry the article and did not include
any of our material (he also interviewed the president of our local ADDAG
group and her 19 year old son--certain testiments to how ADD and Ritalin
truly are ligitimate).  He expressed that he was shocked to see such a
poorly, slanted article and felt someone had an agenda back East.  He was
immediately relieved that his name was not associated with this tasteless and
inaccurate article and has urged me to write letters to the editor of the
paper.  This seemed like a very sincere reporter who has written excellent
health articles in the past and I appreciate the interest he showed the ADD
community in Denver--but nonetheless we have another Ritalin bashing national
article.

If any of you have newspapers that carry this article please write or fax
them--I'm even going to call frequent advertisers to discuss my concern.  As
I'm sure all of you are aware proper diagnosis and early detection of this
very real disorder is so important.  ADHD can kill our children's love of
school and self esteem.  How dare anyone mock us which such garbage--I'm
really pissed off, how about you guys??  Have any of you seen this article?
Please post here or E-mail me.

Barb in Denver


SUBJECT:    Re:School Help     Date:  97-06-11 06:15:51 EST
From:  GIN3153

My son also had a "hellish" 6th grade so I wanted to wish you luck and tell
you to hang in there!  I seem to recall seeing a company on the Internet
called "School Match" that offered some type of comparison information
regarding schools.  I don't think it was free so thought I would warn you
about that, but you might be interested in doing a search on it.  Also, you
may want to contact the local CHADD groups in that area as they would
probably be familiar with which schools work well  with these children and
which schools leave more to be desired.

Also, sometimes the cities themselves have some type of "welcome" web sites
that offer some basic information about the schools in their area.

Someone also told me to check with realtors in the specific area as sometimes
they have a better inside scoop from the parents views of schools.  I find
that it is important to only compare on basis of how they deal with ADHD but
also discipline of all children, national test scores to see if the children
are getting the knowledge they need, and how well the school reacts to parent
input.

Sometimes, just a basic "search" on the internet of some of the specific
schools you are considering will bring up interesting articles so that you
can get a basic "feel" for the school itself but keep in mind that many of
them may be based on opinions of those who have either had extemely good or
bad experiences with the school.

Good luck and I hope I have at least helped you to begin!  Take care and
spread your knowledge about ADHD as much as possible as it is our only hope
for our children!

Gin

SUBJECT:    Re:Bad ADHD news article     Date:  97-06-11 08:38:31 EST
From:  Ratatat

I've just read the article, and it's really tiring.  It's the same old, same
old from the same old sources.  Really nothing new... just a re-hash of the
continued campaign to bash the necessary use of Ritalin.  In my opinion, it
all begins with Gene Haslip, the recently retired deputy assistant
administrator of DEA.  He was featured, highly, in the Merrow Report on PBS a
couple of years ago... saying the same exact stuff and misrepresenting the
same statistics.  It's really disgusting to me that this guy can continue to
campaign on and on and on and on. <sigh>

SUBJECT:    Re:ADDers Unite!     Date:  97-06-12 01:48:44 EST
From:  Daybr88k

If anyone has had the Ritalin=Cocaine articles in their newspapers in the
last couple days I'm encouraging all to write to the editors--how about a
boycott of these papers also??  Sometimes Opposition can be fun!!

SUBJECT:
Re:ADDers Unite!     Date:  97-06-13 18:31:23 EST
From:  Daybr88k

I forgot to give an E-Mail address if anyone has an opinion about such
statements:
--Ritalin Wires Millions. (lead banner headline on front page of Rocky
Mountain News).
--A Pentagon spokesman stated that hyperactivity corrects itself by age12,
anyone still on Ritalin has other problems.
--ADD is a bogus diagnosis.
--Americans would be horrifiied to learn that 2 million children across this
nation are being given cocaine by their parents and doctors to make them
behave better in school.  It's so close to the truth it takes a chemist to
tell the difference.(first sentence after the headline)
--Lots of school and teacher bashing.
--And from an IOC Olympics pharmacist:  You don't want people hurting their
bodies in an attempt to win their sport.
--Parents press for an  ADD diagnosis--because they feel guilty.

If any of this tics you off please respond to the Rocky Mountain News at
          [e-mail]
And/or write to the papers in your own cities.  200 words or less is best.
Fax is 1-303 892-2568.
Thanks

SUBJECT:    .hello need help     Date:  97-06-13 19:20:58 EST
From:  Lil Sizler

 I have a adhd child who was in public school. failed first. i homeschooled
him  now on 1.8 grade level. had him tested recomendation private school.
private schools with lld programs say he can not meet minium requirements for
lld classes and they follow state. If he meet them in public school why not?
do i have a basis for conplaint in order to get my child the best education
he is entitled to? please help?

SUBJECT:    Re:tools for change      Date:  97-06-13 19:55:14 EST
From:  JOTRIGIANI

We also have a child study committee.  It is helpful to our teachers.  It
includes the special education resource teachers, counselor, ESL teacher,
reading specialist, and occasionally our psychologist.  It is also helpful in
pre-screening children who need or will need addtional support.

SUBJECT:
Re:ADDers Unite!     Date:  97-06-13 21:50:44 EST
From:  Ratatat

<If any of this tics you off please respond to the Rocky Mountain News at
          [e-mail]
And/or write to the papers in your own cities.  200 words or less is best.
Fax is 1-303 892-2568.
Thanks>

Thank you.

And the coordinator for this stupid piece of journalism is Peter Copeland,
and John Lang was the primary writer.  I read the articles and they are
appauling.

SUBJECT:    Re:.hello need help     Date:  97-06-13 21:52:56 EST
From:  Ratatat

<private schools with lld programs say he can not meet minium requirements
for lld classes and they follow state. If he meet them in public school why
not? >

Sounds like you did a great job homeschooling!

The only way to determine his eligibility is through a thorough evaluation
and compare the results to your state's criteria.  It's possible that he
doesn't meet the criteria any longer!  However, until he's evaluated there is
no way to know.

SUBJECT:    Re:.hello need help     Date:  97-06-13 21:53:04 EST
From:  RSMama01

I've taught in private and public school.  Special education for children who
are "behind" is very costly.  You have rights for a free and appropriate
education in the least restricted environment which begins in the public
schools.  Private schools are not equipped to handle special needs.  Private
schools for specific special needs are also very costly.  It's only right
that the public school evaluate, meet with you, and discuss options.

SUBJECT:
Re:Teacher info     Date:  97-06-14 11:56:53 EST
From:  JPETORCH

Visit the homepage: http://www.erickson-learning.org for some great training
classes and also call them at their location in Okemos that is listed in the
homepage and they can give you valuable advise.

Jim

SUBJECT:    Re:Teacher info     Date:  97-06-15 08:13:57 EST
From:  MarRigby

We have a student in our school with a 504 plan for his mild to moderate
physical handicapped as well as ADD. This child also has above average
intelligence. His biggest problem seems to be with organizational skills.
What effective remedies are there to help him with his disorganization. I
kept pretty quiet at the 504 Review, because for me to say anything would be
akin to the "blind leading the blind".  Have I developed any compensatory
techniques? Only in areas where I had to! So, please help with some
goals/solutions.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:Teacher info     Date:  97-06-15 10:19:51 EST
From:  Ratatat

< What effective remedies are there to help him with his disorganization. I
kept pretty quiet at the 504 Review, because for me to say anything would be
akin to the "blind leading the blind".  Have I developed any compensatory
techniques? Only in areas where I had to! So, please help with some
goals/solutions. >

Take a look in the Special Education Library for the List of Accommodations
for ADD kids in the regular classroom.  MANY deal with organizational issues
because this is one of the primary difficulties experienced by kids with ADD.


I'll also post the "system" my daughter and I developed before she started
sixth grade to help her be independently (sort of) organizated at school and
at home.  Most of the supervision of her organizational system took place
from my kitchen table - not at the school, BTW.

SUBJECT:    C's System - Part I     Date:  97-06-15 10:25:44 EST
From:  Ratatat

C's System of Organization (c)
by C and her Mom

COLOR CODING
C chose her own colors for everything
Language Arts:    Red
Math:        Yellow
Science:        Green
Soc. Stud.    Blue
Reading:        Purple
Arts:        Brown

We have every kind of pen you can imagine in these colors: water markers,
permanent markers, wide markers, paint pens, smelly pens, etc....

We also bought 3-M plastic tapes in these colors (as best we could) and put a
foot long piece of tape of the proper color around the spine of each book so
when she goes into her locker and has math homework she knows to just pull
out all the yellow stuff.

BINDERS
We bought those white binders with the clear plastic windows and made front,
back and spine title pages to slip in.  Example:  On Yellow Paper, in big
letters we wrote MATH and used a graph paper font.

For each subject/binder we found three-ring pencil cases in the right color,
duo-tangs in the right colors (they live inside the three-ring binder),
three-ring punched manila-type folders in the right color, spiral notebooks
in corresponding colors....whatever she needed.  If we couldn't find the
right color we got white and used our pens and tape to identify them to the
subject/color.  Homework travels to and fro in the duo-tangs that live in the
binders.  We have to periodically go through the duo-tangs and punch holes
and file into the binder stuff she needs to keep.  The binder is used for
storage and important class information.  I suppose you could do something
very similar with one three-ring binder with colorful dividers for each
subject.  There are now some wonderful three-ring binders with zippers that
go around them, and a holder for pens and the like on the inside cover. I
also have some of those accordion files in colors to match and we archive
into them for future reference.

ASSIGNMENT PLANNER
She has a teacher's planner spiral for writing her assignments.  It is a week
at a glance.  We have to write the subjects across the top each week.  We
prepare one term/semester at a time.  Of course, we used the color coding to
do this.

TIME LOG
Every day when she comes home, we check the assignment book and transcribe
the assignments onto a form I devised called a TIME LOG. We chunk out her
assignments on this.  Example:  If she has to read a short story, and answer
the questions for it, we fill in two squares, one for each part of the
assignment.

We then use the time log to prioritize the assignments.  When doing homework,
we keep track of how much time she spends on each chunk and writes it in.  We
also try to make an estimate of how much time she THINKS she will spend - and
can then make a comparison.  By chunking it out in writing and keeping track
of time, we can take breaks in between pieces while still having goals and a
sense of accomplishment.  She is also learning how to plan time, how long
things take to do, etc....

This is also useful to explain to the school how much REAL time is being
spent on homework.

Each sheet of the time log is three-hole punched.  We have a three-ring
binder that lives on the kitchen counter (where else?), and the completed
time logs and blanks are kept there.

WALL CALENDAR
Huge Wall Calendar where only her things are written:  long term school
assignments plotted, due dates, sports practice and games, vacations :), and
what ever else SHE wants.  Color coded, of course!

BOOKS
We also have two complete sets of books and workbooks.  We have to buy both!
A public school they can provide them, but you can't write in them.  She
drags her books back and forth (part of her training to be responsible) but
if she ever forgets something we don't have to do a Chinese Fire Drill and
run back to school.  We encourage her to write in her books. We have many
different colors of highlighters too.


SUBJECT:    C's System - Part II     Date:  97-06-15 10:27:09 EST
From:  Ratatat

HIGHLIGHTING
When she has to read a chapter in Soc. Stud. and take notes we read along
with her with the two books side-by-side (nice and cozy on the sofa).  If she
is tired I do all the reading, otherwise we take turns with sections or
paragraphs.  She highlights as we go.  At first she used one color for the I,
II, III, IV, etc.. and another color for the A,B,C, etc.. and yet another for
1,2,3, etc...  Now she can just highlight important stuff as we read and we
figure out which is what when she is going to do her notes.  Also, she now
takes bubble notes instead of the more formal outline format - it works
better for her.

When she has to do pages in Grammar, like for instance, identifying all the
proper nouns and common nouns in 20 sentences, we first pick a color for each
type of noun.  Then, we go through each sentence with one type of noun in
mind and one color at a time.  Then go back through and do it again with the
other noun/color.  She can then transcribe all the right answers into her
spiral.  By doing this we cut tons of time out of her Grammar homework time.

SPELLING
I developed a study sheet for her to use for spelling.  She studies her
words, writes them down once in the first column.  Then folds the paper over
to hide the first column but so she can write in the third column.  I test
her.  She checks her spelling from our test against the first column.  Any
words she gets wrong she checks, then writes 5 times in the middle column.
Using this system she has been scoring 100 on almost every spelling test!
(See Susan Setley's book, Taming the Dragons, for lots of great spelling and
other tricks!)

We also have the Franklin(r) Language Master which allows C to check her
spelling on papers, and to hear words that she can spell, but can't yet say.
It also has a thesaurus function.  This is one of the greatest tools for a
child with ADD and who is having difficulty with spelling.

As you can see we are very colorful around here!  But, hey, it works.  The
hard part was finding all the supplies and setting up the system.  After
that, consistency.  Now, it is habit.

She does have to truck a lot of stuff back and forth.  She has the biggest
back pack made by LLBean with her initials on it!

(c) C and her Mom


SUBJECT:    Re:C's System - Part II     Date:  97-06-15 20:05:53 EST
From:  MarRigby

Ratatat:

I printed your two posts, and I will send a copy to the student's mom, and
save a copy for next year's classroom teacher. I also have the book TAMING
THE DRAGONS, so I will check that out as well. As matter of fact, (after the
meeting) I thought of looking in there. As usual hindsight is always 20/20!

Thank you very much!

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:C's System - Part II     Date:  97-06-15 23:14:57 EST
From:  RSMama01

Don't forget to look at Anita Archer's materials on Skills.  Also Hawthorne
Press has many really good materials for ADD problems as well as  strategies
for other learning problems.

SUBJECT:    Re:C's System - Part II     Date:  97-06-17 01:20:36 EST
From:  CHSMom

I printed out your post to add to my file of resources/ideas!  Out of
curiosity, what grade is C in?

SUBJECT:    ADHD-School Placement     Date:  97-06-18 17:03:27 EST
From:  Dron4545

My 8yr. old has been suspended several times this year. I new at the
beginning of the year that the teacher and new principal were going to be a
problem so I had asked for an evaluation in Sept.96. I filled Out the paper
work and my copies were returned but no evaluation and no reason given. I
finally wrote the SC Dept. of Education and got an eval. in Feb. 97. I knew
that the principal was trying to get rid of my son and the eval. said
emotionally handicapped and above average in reading and spelling and avg. in
math but needs to go to a school with a self contained classroom even though
he is on ritalin he needs to develop social skills. You can read my message
at classroom mag. at behavior modifications.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD-School Placement     Date:  97-06-18 21:57:04 EST
From:  MarRigby

Although his evaluations show that he is performing within the average or
above average range, how is he actually functioning in the classroom? Is his
classroom functioning/grades on par with evaluation results? If they are,
there is absolutely no justification for being in a full-time Sp. Ed.
classroom. Full-time Sp. Ed. should only take place when all other options
have been exhausted. How many professionals in the multi-disciplinary team
were involved in the evaluation process and team meetings? Has least
restrictive environment been tried before "throwing" him in full-time? Had he
been receiving part-time services in Sp. Ed. before being considered for
full-time.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:C's System - Part II     Date:  97-06-18 22:42:16 EST
From:  Ratatat

<
I printed out your post to add to my file of resources/ideas!  Out of
curiosity, what grade is C in?>

We developed this system as she was entering middle school.  She's going off
to high school next year (eeeekkkkk!!!!!), and it is a boarding school away
from home (not a school for ADD/LD kids either!).  By the way <grin> I just
got her report card, and WOW.  She made the second honor roll with four A's
and three B's.

SUBJECT:    Re:C's System - Part II     Date:  97-06-18 23:39:54 EST
From:  CHSMom

WOW is right!  congratulations to you both.

SUBJECT:    Please help support ADD
kids     Date:  97-06-19 11:32:44 EST
From:  Daybr88k

More Bad News

I mentioned last week that there was a series of terrible misleading articles
about Ritalin that were being published in 24 newspapers across the country.
But yesterday it got worse--The Rocky Mountain News itself wrote an editorial
repeating more of the same garbage-- and because this was the editor's
editorial it was displayed prominately with the following headline:  "The
Drugging of Children"  If anyone is bothered by this please act by sending a
fax or E-Mail to the Rocky Mountain News  fax is 892-2568 or E-Mail at
[e-mail]
The editor of the editorial page is Vincent Carroll.
Please make your feelings known--the motto of the Rocky Mountain News is:
"Give light and the people will find their own way."  How touching!!
Some of the misleading statements included:
--Schools and parents diliberately encourage ADD diagnosis to gain access to
money.
--ADD is a bogus diagnosis.
--The Pentagon has stated that hyperactivity corrects itself by age
12--anyone still on Ritalin has other problems.
--2 million children are given cocaine by their parents and doctors to help
them behave in school.

Write On...

SUBJECT:    Re:Please help support ADD     Date:  97-06-20 05:45:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

Time for some MYTH busting:

<--Schools and parents diliberately encourage ADD diagnosis to gain access to
money.
HUH?  Most of the accommodations that student with ADD require can be
provided in the regular classroom, do not require eligibility for special
education, and cost little or nothing to provide.  How much does it cost to
have the kid sit near the source of instruction, or to always provide
instruction and assignments in writing, teach the child how to break tasks
into smaller chunks, praise EFFORT, etc.?

--ADD is a bogus diagnosis.
ADD is well documented and defined in the scientific literature and by the
federal government as being a real thing, and for decades.  WE know it's not
bogus.  BTW, this is the wording that comes from the mouths of the
Scientologists!

--The Pentagon has stated that hyperactivity corrects itself by age
12--anyone still on Ritalin has other problems.
Since when did the "brass" collectively go to medical school and get their
degree in psychology, psychiatry, neurology or pediatrics?  Jeesh.  This is
an old myth that was busted long ago.  Just ask some of the millions of
adults who are still effected by ADD and who still need to be on a medical
regimen for optimal functioning.

--2 million children are given cocaine by their parents and doctors to help
them behave in school.>
I DON'T THINK SO!
Really!  But, cocaine is an illegal drug.  You can't get a prescription for
cocaine! The ONLY medical use for cocaine WAS as a type of local anesthetic,
but is rarely (if ever) used that way any more, now that we have better
drugs.  Last I checked, cocaine was used only recreationally by individuals
who were looking to get a big buzz - that being it's only purpose!

Ritalin and cocaine are chemically different, and though some of the brain
responses to them are similar, they are significantly different to be able to
be able completely separate the two and their uses - chemically, medically,
and socially.  Lord.

SUBJECT:    Good News for Kids with ADD     Date:  97-06-20 05:53:11 EST
From:  Ratatat

An important victory has been won for children with ADD throughout the US who
attend private schools.  Recently, a child who has ADD and was suspended from
a private school was order reinstated by a FEDERAL U.S. District Court Judge,
citing violations by the school of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and the
Americans with Disabilities Act, Title III.

In addition, the Judge directed that the child be offered a multi-modal
treatment program, including individual and family psychotherapy, parenting
courses, family workshops, and medication as directed byhis pediatrician; and
be provided with a plan, developed by his parents, doctors, and teachers,
that identifies his needs and creates strategies to help him address his
problems.

Also, and important for ALL children with ADD in ALL schools - this decision
reinforces the fact that FEDERAL LAW recognizes ADD as a disability.  It is
shown now, yet again, that it is in the public interest that children with
ADD be protected from discrimination.

SUBJECT:    Re:Update on our son     Date:  97-06-22 23:10:40 EST
From:  Nbreen97

dear update on fifth grader;  glad to hear things went more smoothly after
school meeting.  it's law that teachers need to follow modifications set by
iep.  Special ed. director should monitor progress .  Try to help son learn
to compensate for his weaknesses and to learn coping skills to  improve
success and self monitoring.  ADD kids need a little more structure and a lot
more flexibility when it comes to learning.  A daily assignment book signed
off by teachers and you will help monitor the academics.  Behavior situations
can be handled daily or weekly.  More later .  Signed--spec.ed teacher in
TN

SUBJECT:    COLLEGE FAIR     Date:  97-06-24 00:11:22 EST
From:  WDavis1357

The Cobb County Special Education Advisory Committee (Marietta, GA), will
present a College Fair as part of a program entitled "Accessing Resources for
College Bound Students with Special Needs".  Several colleges will have
representatives on hand to answer questions.  There will also be a panel of
currently enrolled college students(with disabilities)  to share their
college experiences, as well as guest speakers addressing such topics as
SAT's, college admissions, scholarships, etc.  There is no charge for
attendance.
The program will be held at The Cobb Civic Center, Marietta, GA, on Monday,
October 27, 1997; from 5:00 - 9:00 P.M.
This program will be of most help to students with LD's & ADD AD/HD, but all
high school students are encouraged to attend.
This program is co-sponsored by The Cobb Extension Service.
Registration is required.  For more info...e mail to [e-mail]

SUBJECT:
Re:EMG biofeedback for ADHD     Date:  97-06-29 11:15:31 EST
From:  QB36

Has anyone heard of a school using EMG biofeedback for ADHD students and if
so, what kid of results are they getting?  I am interested in working with
ADHD kids using this form of therapy within the school system however, I am
not sure of the kind of response I may get from the school or the parents as
well.  QB36

SUBJECT:    Re:EMG biofeedback for ADHD     Date:  97-06-30 00:39:47 EST
From:  PeterCB55

I would strongly urge you to take some time and read the research, what there
is of it, and other avialable information concerning the costs and efficacy
of EMG, EEG and Thermal feedback for children with ADHD before you invest
time and money. While there are "a few" outcome studies (with small sample
sizes and limited methodological controls on the samples used) that suggest
some benefit for a few children, the research is hardly conclusive or
persuasive at this juncture, at least in my own review of things. Further,
the treatment is time intensive and often costly (e.g., 20-60 sessions of
30-45 minutes duration are not unheard of) and I believe important questions
have yet to be answered about the practicality and usability of the technique
beyond the office walls. No doubt some individual children have benefitted
from EMG/EEG/Thermal feedback approaches; however, what is at issue is it's
relevance, efficacy, and appropriateness for the majority of children with
ADD. At this point EMG/EEG advocates appear to be relying more on their
personal experience, individual client reports of change, and hopefulness,
while lacking in more substantial scientific evidence where these techniques
are concerned.

PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:EMG biofeedback for ADHD     Date:  97-06-30 07:10:06 EST
From:  Ratatat

< At this point EMG/EEG advocates appear to be relying more on their personal
experience, individual client reports of change, and hopefulness, while
lacking in more substantial scientific evidence where these techniques are
concerned.   >

Peter, I'm hoping for some good studies on this, as it could be one thing
that might prove to be a viable adjunct to the proven methods already
employed.

So, far, the better studies seem to show that kids who receive biofeedback do
better when receiving this treatment while ON medication!  I'm not surprised.

I had quite a conversation with a biofeedback techniciatn at the ADDA
conference, and it seems that the measures used to guage improvement at their
clinic are based on the counts of Beta and Theta waves.  I asked if they
gathered any information before and after treatment about the actually
functioning of the individual from outside observers (teachers, parents,
co-workers, etc) to use to help show improvement, and the answer was no.
<sigh>

You are right too about the cost.  It's an extraordinarily expensive therapy,
both in terms of money and time.  And, no one can say what the carry-over
benefits are or how long they will last.

What really boils me though is that many insurance companies will readily
agree to pay for this, but NOT for traditional proven psychological and
medical interventions.

SUBJECT:    Re:EMG biofeedback for ADHD     Date:  97-07-01 16:05:36 EST
From:  RRTeach

I believe Long Island Jewish Hospital  (New Hyde Park) was doing some
research on this a few years back - you might want to contact them. I don't
know what the results were but I recall a news article.

SUBJECT:    Teenagers with
ADHD     Date:  97-07-06 13:46:23 EST
From:  MNigon

I'm confused about suspensions of students with ADHD.  Last year my
15-year-old (then 14) son was suspended for an incident with a teacher.  He
was in a regular classroom, the teacher told him to leave for uncooperative
behavior.  He asked to get his coat, the teacher backed him into the corner,
screamed in his face to leave, and blocked his way to the door.  When my son
pushed him out of the way to leave, the school suspended him AND pressed
criminal charges for assault.
At the time, he had been placed in a special education class with an IEP.
Was the school within their rights to do what they did or were some of his
rights violated?  Please advise.

SUBJECT:    2nd Grader with ADHD     Date:  97-07-09 19:44:57 EST
From:  Tjlaax

I have a daughter entering 2nd grade in Sept., I am a teacher in the same
school system, different school.  My Kindergarten position was eliminated;
therefore sending me to teach a different grade in one of our 5 elementary
schools.  The superintendent in all of his wisdom, wants me to teache 1st or
2nd grade in the school my daughter attends.  I think this would be
devastating for my poor daughter, who has her condition controlled with
ritalin and clonidine.  I can't seem to make the Superintendent understand
why my daughter might take a giant step backwards by having me in her "space"
even in the best circumstances.  ADHD makes her life more difficult anyhow.
Any suggestions on how to make the man understand that ADHD differs from the
"common cold"  Thanks.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenagers with ADHD     Date:  97-07-10 06:32:39 EST
From:  Ratatat

<When my son pushed him out of the way to leave, the school suspended him AND
pressed criminal charges for assault.>

First, no child can be suspended without the opportunity to speak for
themselves.

How long was the suspension?   Had there been any other incidences that year?
With this teacher?  And, had he received any others that school year?  Did
they consider his diability when they made the decision?

A suspension (or expulsion) is considered a significant change of placement
if it lasts more than 10 days, or if there is a pattern of separating the
student from his educational placement that adds up to 10 days.  Children who
have been found eligible for special education cannot have a significant
change of placement past 10 days without some things happening.

The rule that dictates how this must be handled is the "stay put" rule.  Very
simplyt says:

For kids with an IEP under IDEA, a complete IEP meeting must be reconvened in
order to determine a new placement.  This meeting must convene *before* the
10 days are up, because to go over the 10 days without formally changing the
IEP through the committee is a violation of IDEA.  But, they can suspend up
to the 10 days.  However, if the IEP committee decides that the child cannot
come back to the school setting, they must plan and provide for a way for the
student to continue his/her education, such as teaching the child in his
home.

For kids with and IEP under Section 504, a complete evaluation of the
educational placement, program and student must be conducted in order to
determine a the most appropriate placement for the student and to determine
if the student has been receiving appropriate accommodations/supports - and
if not, to design them.

Partly, the reason for these reviews is so that a team of experts (including
the parent), can determine if the incident was a direct result of the
student's disability, and/or in any way caused by a lack of appropriate
educational care.  The team individuals who evaluate a child for an IEP must
include at least one person who is expert in the child's area of major
disability.  That information must be taken into consideration at the meeting
that considers the child's educational placement, both initially, and at the
time of a suspension that is longer than 10 days.

The process that schools are to use when considering the suspension or
expulsion of a student who has, or is suspected of having, a disablity are
pretty well spelled out by the federal regulations, and lots of guidance
exists through what's happened up to date in the courts.

Did your son's school advise you of your rights under IDEA or Section 504 at
the time of suspension?

Under the new IDEA regulations, (I'm not clear when they take effect) from
what I understand, the schools bear the burden of proof to show that a child
is a serious danger to themselves or others before a suspension/expulsion of
more than 10 days can take place.  And, it also puts an affirmative
obligation on the schools to develop individualized and personalized behavior
management plans for problematic students, but who's behaviors are a result
of their disability.

SUBJECT:    Re:2nd Grader with ADHD     Date:  97-07-10 06:40:43 EST
From:  Ratatat

<The superintendent in all of his wisdom, wants me to teache 1st or 2nd grade
in the school my daughter attends.  I think this would be devastating for my
poor daughter, who has her condition controlled with ritalin and clonidine.>

Though I don't have any direct experience with this, I have a number of
friends who've been through this, maybe it can help.

My children go to a small, independent school.  One of the attractions for
getting new (hopefully good) teachers is a break on the tuition for their
kids.  Therefore, the school has quite a few faculty children in it's ranks.

I have seen, in both of my kids grades, children of these faculty in the
lower and middle schools, have their kids come through the grade they teach
with no problem.  Of couse, their child is NEVER in the room, and I think
they come to some understandings beforehand with their colleagues about
avoiding special or not-so-special treatment for their child.  I think that,
in what I've seen, the teachers were very professional in how they managed
their classrooms, and didn't allow the fact that one of their kids' parents
taught next door to negatively impact their classroom, or the student.  Also,
I think that the kids of the teachers often enjoyed having their Mom nearby.
Especially in second grade, and especially girls.

When my own daughter was in second grade she was having some enormous
difficulties.  I decided to volunteer at the lower school library three days
a week for a couple of hours each of those days, just so that I could be "on
campus."  My daughter LOVED it.  She would often scoot down the hall and say
Hi, and give me a hug.  In fact, she was rather proud that her Mom was there.
(I guess I never embarassed her, somehow).

Anyway, I think, with proprer planning and preparation, and with the right
mind-set, it can work, and may even be a very positive experience.  I'd say
that having this happen in second grade would be better than in a later grade
too.  Just prepare with lots of thoughtful discussion and you should be okay.
Might be better and easier than bucking the superintendent anyway!

SUBJECT:
Re:2nd Grader with ADHD     Date:  97-07-10 08:40:05 EST
From:  RSMama01

I taught in the same school where my children attended.  In fact, my son was
in my first grade class.  It was a horrible experience for all of us.  Last
year, my principal moved into our school area.  Her children attend our
school.  She resigned from her position.  It can be very difficult.  I know a
teacher in another school where I work who has her ADHD son in the same
school.  It's working for her.  It depends on the staff--the child--and you.
As long as they treat your child like any other--as long as you don't see
when he's being disapplined--as long as the teacher's are fair and honest--as
long as all feelings are left out--etc.  You might make it successfully.  I
nearly lost one of my best friends as a friend when she had my son.  I don't
mean to be negative but I wish your superintendent would do some research on
the subject.  Sometimes though--it's impossible to avoid.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenagers
with ADHD     Date:  97-07-10 12:53:39 EST
From:  MNigon

Thank you for your informative feedback.  In answer to your question, he was
not suspended for more than 10 days, although the suspension may have put him
at the 10 day mark.  When he was suspended, we were not informed of his
rights under IDEA or section 504.  At the time of the incident, he did have
an IEP, but the teacher described in the incident had no information
concerninng his disability or accomodations in his IEP.  Whose responsibility
is this?

The plan for next year is to try again to mainstream him in two classes based
on the fact that after this incident (in October), he did not have any
serious discipline problems for the remainder of the year.  I thought I would
approach his teachers and give them some information concerning his
disability and especially the accomodations contained in his IEP.  Is this a
good idea?

Also, what exactly constitutes an expert on ADHD?  Does a special education
teacher teaching a behavior disorder class qualify?  My son's teacher does
not seem to have an abundance of information concerning this area.

SUBJECT:
Re:Teenagers with ADHD     Date:  97-07-10 20:00:39 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

Although regualr ed teachers don't have to have copies of the IEP, they must
be made aware of it according to OCR/OSES rulings.  Spec Ed teachers must
have the actual plan.

I'll let RaTaTat, the resident expert, address the "ADD expert"
question.

SUBJECT:    ADD w/o hyperactivity     Date:  97-07-11 11:49:58 EST
From:  ANA7895

If anyone knows of any good research, books, or articles on ADD without
hyperactivity please let me know - I would appreciate any help!!    Send to
[e-mail]

Thanks!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenagers with ADHD     Date:  97-07-11 20:08:39 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Thank you for your informative feedback.  In answer to your question, he was
not suspended for more than 10 days, although the suspension may have put him
at the 10 day mark. >

My understanding is that up to the 10 mark they can do pretty much what the
need in terms of using suspension as a disciplinary tool - though they need
to be careful and wary about when they apply the consequence of a broken
policy that they have evaluated each individual decision and taken the
likelihood of the child's disaiblity being a factor.

<<At the time of the incident, he did have an IEP, but the teacher described
in the incident had no information concerninng his disability or
accomodations in his IEP.  Whose responsibility is this?  >>

It should be the school's responsibilitysince they are in charge of his IEP
and educational plan and are supposed to be aware of his diability.  You
might consider requesting a review of all his records - culumlative,
confidential (spec ed), discipline and compliance files to review how the
school recorded this incident.  If you don't agree with a record or want to
amend it, you may write a document to be included into the file as *your*
statement, or you can even request to have records expunged if you thing they
are inappropriate and have no bearing on his education.

No matter who's official responsibility it may be to inform teachers, etc...
I think that it is *always* the parents job to do so because we are our
child's life long advocates and know them best.  There are many times when we
need to stick our foot in the door and insert ourselves.  Even if it is at
the moment the door is slamming (ouch!).  Our kids do need champions to speak
up on their behalf, and who better than a parent?

< I thought I would approach his teachers and give them some information
concerning his disability and especially the accomodations contained in his
IEP.  Is this a good idea?>

The IEP is a service contract.  Those teachers who need to be aware of
different aspects of the IEP because they are either involved in or
responsible for providing a service need to be made aware of that portion of
it.  This is usually the modifications/adjustment parts because they effect
the regular classroom the most.  I find that the special ed folk don't give
as much information as they should to the teachers.  I would always take it
upon myself to educate them about my child's unique needs and challenges -
never forgetting to mention is strengths too.

When was the last IEP meeting you had to discuss this coming Fall?  Are you
going to have a "staffing" in the Fall?  A staffing is when you sit down with
your child's classroom teachers and "brief" them on the IEP and what they
need to know to help your child.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenagers with ADHD     Date:  97-07-11 20:14:43 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Also, what exactly constitutes an expert on ADHD?  Does a special education
teacher teaching a behavior disorder class qualify?  >

An expert on ADD would be someone, a mental health worker or physician who
has special knowledge and experience in how to identify and treat they
symptoms caused by ADD.  Some schools bother to send their teachers to
national or state conferences for training.  Some school have good extensive
in-service workshops.  Though a regular education teacher needs to be
knowledgable, a special education teacher SHOULD be knowledgable about the
unique needs of kids with ADHD concerning their self-management challenges,
problems with attention, and impulsivity.  They should be well versed the the
appropriate accommodations most often required for these kids, and aware of
how global the impact of ADD can be on a student and those around them.  The
"assumption" is that within the district there should be someone who is
expert in all the disabilities that can be found in the IDEA categories, or
that the district has access to experts for consultation when needed.  If no
one in your school has recent specialized knowledge about ADD you need to
start making noise for an in-service program and/or start providing them with
some good reading materials.  Unlike for LD, there is no "certification" for
an educator of kids with ADD.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD w/o hyperactivity     Date:  97-07-12 08:49:27 EST
From:  PeterCB55

Regarding references that focus on ADD without hyperactivity.

This continues to be a challenge and the field IMHO still lacks in
publications
that can be of help when it comest to ADD without hyperactivity. A few
possible ways to approach this are through the following listing.

1. "Keeping Ahead in School" by Mel Levine, Much of Levine's writing focuses
on the impact of inattention on "learning" as compared to the bulk of the
mainstream ADD literature which tends to focus heavily on what I would call
the "9-year-old boy" ADHD syndrome. He writes with an emphasis on the ways
inattention symptoms can interefere with everyday school work and
relationships in a sympathetic and compassionate perspective. The book also
includes chapters on other types of learning problems, and is written for
parents and children reading at about the 7th grade level (my guess) and
above.

2. Educational Care by Mel Levine, is for teachers, professionals and parents
who like to read about the same topics described in a somehwat more
simplified fashion Keeping Ahead in School.. This book also includes chapters
on other types of learning problems.

3. For older teenage females, selected sections from Sari Solden's book on
Women with ADD
may speak to issues of inattention, disorganization and the often hidden
impact of attention difficulties that emerge as one is thrust into situations
requiring greater independence and self-management skill.

4. Chris Dendy's book on parenting teenagers with ADD also has some helpful
chapters that discuss inattention symptoms.

4. The other mainstream publications (e.g., by Barkley, Goldstein, Murphy,
etc,etc,) also offer include helpful information. However, they need to be
read with an eye toward the "relevant" chapters on inattention, working
memory, disorganization, impaired sustained attention and so on that are
often the "key" issues with children with ADD-. This can be discouraging
though, because it is apparent that the focus among authors has been centered
on the most "visibly" disruptive ADD symptoms, i.e., impulsive and
hyperactive behavior at the expense of the likely more insideous and chronic
features which of course involve inattention, weaknesses in working memory,
disorganization and self-management skills.

Regards,


PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:Update on our son     Date:  97-07-15 10:14:55 EST
From:  WTaylor134

I've just become a new user and am so excited to find information about ADD
and others who are struggling with raising a child with ADD.  I plan to check
in periodically so please keep the information flowing.

SUBJECT:    Another Update     Date:  97-07-19 19:03:14 EST
From:  Sunrise245

Hello everyone.  It's been awhile since I've been on here.  Alot has
happened.  Thanks to all the information, help, and support I have received
online my son is now getting special education services.  He didn't have much
time left in school when it was put in place so it was more on a monitoring
basis.  The commitee to decide if his misbehavior was connected to his
disorder decided it wasn't connected.  He took a knife (collector type) to
school to sell to another child.  They had been trying to make the exchange
for over two weeks and my son got frustrated and took it to school.  They
said it was connected to his ADHD since it wasn't an impulsive act.  Like
that is the only side effect that goes with ADHD!  We went back through the
Tribunal Disciplinary Hearing and for the second time they expelled him for
one calendar year.  Again I appealed to the school board.  In the mean time
we went to Juvenile Court (also for taking the knife to school) and he got 6
months probation, participation in a juvenile supervision program, and a $100
supervision fee.  My son is earning the money to pay the fee by doing extra
chores at home and watering plants for people while they are on vacation.
When we went to the school board I told them I disagreed with the commitee
and explained why ADHD was connected to the incident.  I evidently presented
the case well enough along with my attorney and Doug's statement of apology
because they amended the expulsion.  His punishment is now the 22 days he was
out of school last Spring on suspension/expulsion and an additional 10 days
of In School Suspension to be served the first two weeks of school this Fall.
Now my next battle is getting an IEP written.  He will be in High School this
year with all new teachers, principal, etc.  I have about a month before
school starts.  If anyone knows of any advocates in the North Metro Atlanta
area that could help me, please email me at [e-mail]   Thanks for
being here and God Bless you all.

SUBJECT:    Re:Another Update     Date:  97-07-21 20:18:32 EST
From:  Tjlaax

I feel for you!  Maybe you should fight to make the school put him into
private placement.  Missing school (expulsion) isn't an appropriate solution.
Doesn't he have the right to an education?  Good luck and keep us
posted!

SUBJECT:    Gillingham reading approach     Date:  97-07-28 20:17:15 EST
From:  Scott25973

Looking for ANY info on Gillingham reading approach for a friend.  Would
appreciate any feedback, pro's, con's, what states provide this program
etc...I know this reading approach is used with children with dyslexia and
ADD.  Any info would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

SUBJECT:    Re:Gillingham
reading approach     Date:  97-07-28 22:41:31 EST
From:  RoneeLDA

Contact the Orton Gillingham Association in your state. If you haven't any
success you might contact Farleigh Dickenson University in New Jersey (school
of education-special ed. division) They are training teachers in this method.


SUBJECT:    reasonable accommodations     Date:  97-07-29 11:21:00 EST
From:  WTaylor134

I am looking for lists of reasonable accommodations for classroom teachers of
students with Learning Disabilities and Attentional Disorders.  I will be
presenting this topic to groups of teachers and administrators in the Fall.
I have accumulated some good information as both a parent of an ADD/LD child,
and also as a school Speech/Language therapist.  I would really like to get
feedback from teachers on SPECIFIC accommodations that have been particularly
useful, practical, and effective.  I would appreciate any ideas you might
like to share, on any grade level, subject, or particular area of
modification.  For example, ideas on modifying homework, tests, classwork,
etc. would be great.  Thank-you!

SUBJECT:    Re:reasonable accommodations     Date:  97-07-29 12:33:40 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I would appreciate any ideas you might like to share, on any grade level,
subject, or particular area of modification.  For example, ideas on modifying
homework, tests, classwork, etc. would be great.  Thank-you!>

There was an extensive study done on just this by The Chesapeake Institute
not all that long ago.  It was in turn incorporated into a training program
for schools by the Department of Education.  It was distributed by the
Council for Exceptional Children and CHADD at one point.  It's called,
"Facing the Challenges of ADD.  A Kit for Parents and Educators."

You can reach the CEC at 1-800-CEC-READ in Reston, VA.

Hope this helps.

SUBJECT:    Re:reasonable accommodations     Date:  97-07-30 15:03:17 EST
From:  Meyersons4

I also like "Professional's Guide: Attention Deficit Disorder" by David &
Myra Sosin, published by Teacher Created Materials, Inc. 1996.  (The address
for the publisher is 6421 Industry Way, Westminster CA 92683).

It's a "little" (only 76 pages) book an MD & a teacher, who have an ADD
child.  I like it because it gives a good overview, approaches the "it takes
too much time to accommodate" from the "it wastes more time if you don't"
view point.  It also gives a seven-page checklist on ways that a classroom
can be accommodated (many of these suggestions, of course, would benefit ALL
children, not just ours).  Topics on the checklist include:  Communication,
arrangement of classroom, lesson presentation,
assignments/worksheets/homework, assessment, organization, administrative
accommodations, and positive strategies for modifying behavior.

I've bought a couple of copies & shared it with family members who thought we
were being unrealistic in our requests for our daughter  (the overview
section also helped them undestand -- in non-technical language -- the
struggles she was having).  I teach in a supplementary Hebrew school (after
school and on weekends) and am involved in teacher training there.  This book
is one that I plan to share with our staff in order to help them meet some of
the needs of our kids.

Good luck.

SUBJECT:    re:reasonable accommodations     Date:  97-08-01 13:21:35 EST
From:  WTaylor134

Thank you, Ratatat and Myerson, for your excellent suggestions.  I have
printed out your messages and plan to use your ideas for this upcoming
project.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-08-06 20:29:57 EST
From:  Kimzlion

I have a 10 year ols son who has been in the "special education nightmare"
for 3 years. He has been classified" Perceptually Impaired" with ADHD. I made
the mistake of moving into a very "straight" school district when he was in
second grade. They told me they could not accomidate his needs in district,
and since that time my little boy has been in a different school each year.
His self esteem has been destroyed, they refuse to make any accomidations. At
one point I convinced them to keep him in district for  a period of time, and
they only agreed if I would pay for counceling services, which I did because
I wanted my son to be provided the opportunity to be educated with his
friends.I am a single mother, and when  this didn't "pan out" they told me
either I consent to a self contained school or they would put him on home
instruction, very well knowing that this would cause me to lose my house and
job.   They sent him to a self contained school, and the school he went to
had a physical restraint policy, which the distrct neglected to inform me of
in advance. One day my 7 year old son came home with bruises on his legs
because a teacher  had thrown him down and sat on him. In my opinion, it is
so easy to "push the buttons" of a child who is having problems and force
them into a situation which will cause them to lose control. I am reading
your letters, and you seem to be teachers who care, but please understand
that there are many parents like myself who have had the unfortunate
experience of having to put up with teachers who only see our children with
special needs as an inconvenience. Anyway, my son is a GREAT kid. I went to
see a very prominenet special ed attorney in NJ, who advised me that the
township I live in has "0" tolerance for anything that doesn't fit into their
picture of what a student should be. He also told me that if I paid him his
fee ($5,000) we would win in court, and they would have to take my son back
into the district.... but that if we did that they were vindictive in nature,
and would make him fail so we would be back where  are now. I need some HELP
(and I know on-line caps means  your'e yelling) but I would appreciate any
input, help or suggstions. My boy is a good boy, and he is getting a raw
deal. Anyone that can give me some direction, please do so. Best Regards.


SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.RhoLauren     Date:  97-08-06 20:39:32 EST
From:  Kimzlion

It's all well and good that the teachers are "burnt out" however, they chose
the job..and it is their job. They are the adults. The children should not
suffer a lifetime of irrepairable destruction to their self esteem because a
teacher is "tired" of it. Our children come first!!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-08-07 07:58:09 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I went to see a very prominenet special ed attorney in NJ, who advised me
that the township I live in has "0" tolerance for anything that doesn't fit
into their picture of what a student should be. He also told me that if I
paid him his fee ($5,000) we would win in court, and they would have to take
my son back into the district.... but that if we did that they were
vindictive in nature, and would make him fail so we would be back where  are
now.>

You need to get in touch with the Protection and Advocacy agency in your
state and get some information about your rights, the laws, etc.  Attorney's
can recover their fees if the prevail in a due process hearing under IDEA,
and for civil suits under the civil rights law, 504.  I can understand that
this lawyer wants a retainer to begin, but really, you should talk to him
about working the case on a contingincey.  Additionally, the type of
retaliation he is concerned with is a major violation of civil rights laws.
You might consider touching base with the Office of Civil Rights.  Since you
son as been denied access to a free and APPROPRIATE education, and you have
been denied access to your due process rights via threats, etc., OCR might be
very interested.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-08-07 18:37:24 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

As usual Ratatat is right - however, to win on a retaliation claim, you
generally have to first file an OCR complaint.  Then is the District
retaliates (or continues what they were doing) you can claim that they are do
so in retaliation for your exercise of a federally guaranteed right.  I know
IDEA itself should do this, but the case law here is tough.

As, if the atmosphere between the District and the parent is "posioned" to
the point that the child cannot recieve FAPE, there are some cases were the
parent can go for private schooling at District expense.  However, especially
nder the new IDEA, you must give the District notice.

Next, if you go the IEP process and claim either an improper IEP or "lack of
progress" and then proceed to due process, under the new IDEA mediation is
strongly encouraged.  This is at no cost to the parents.  In fact, parents
attorneys cannot recover their fees for assiting the parent in mediation.
(nice deal - when the District has taxpayer funded attorneys at $200 hour
advising them on a daily basis).

Finally, representing spec ed parents is risky.  The parents attorney is
going up against taxpayer funded attorneys with unlimited funds available.  I
can tell you the horror stories of the parents prevailing in due process and
the attorney demanding their $8,000 fee for "prevailing", and the District
fighting the fee issues for another $25,000 in fees.  Fortunately, the
parents attorney prevailed for the entire $33,000.  But you can see the
problem.  That is why very few attorneys even practice in this area, and
those that do are generally unwilling to assume the entire risk by a 100%
contingency arrangement.  Normally, it is a mix of fee paid, with some cap on
the limit where the attorney picks up the risk.  Of course, the attorney has
to be pretty convinced he has a winner.  That is why the P&A organizations
are so important.  As they are funded, they can provide some representation a
zero or no cost.

Hope this helps.

JFB


SUBJECT:    Re: ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-08-10 17:48:40 EST
From:  WTaylor134

As a parent and a teacher of children with learning and attentional
disabilities, I can appreciate your apparent frustrations and concerns.  I
would suggest that you educate yourself as best as you can on the educational
rights of children with disabilities.  When educators and attorneys talk
about these issues, it is easy to become confused by the jargon used.  For
example,  you are probably reading and perhaps hearing about IDEA, 504
accommodation plans, etc. But if you do not have a firm understanding of
these concepts, it is very easy to become lost in it all. Perhaps you are not
aware that your child is entitled, by federal law, to a free and appropriate
education - to be provided by the public school district.  You and your child
have rights, but it is hard to find school officials who are willing to
explain them to you.  Here are a few suggestions: Look for a CHADD (Children
and Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder) support group in your area - and
call the coordinator.  He/She may be able to get information for you on these
laws, suggest some good reading material (books, pamphlets, etc.) and perhaps
give you the name of a Special Education Advocate.  This is someone who knows
the laws very well, and will work with you and the school district to insure
that your child's needs are being met.  I apologize for the length of this
message!  Good Luck!

SUBJECT:    Auditory Processing     Date:  97-08-13 07:16:50 EST
From:  Concepts1

The Earobics and Earobics PRO Auditory Development & Phonics programs use
sophisticated computer-training techniques, including acoustic enhancement of
the speech signal and adaptive training, to facilitate development of the
auditory phonics skills that are critical for speech and language development
and academic success.

Multiple levels of difficulty, as many as 114 levels per game, deliver
extensive practice and comprehensive training of a variety of auditory and
phonological processing skills including auditory attention, auditory
discrimination, auditory figure-ground discrimination, auditory memory,
phonemic synthesis, sound segmentation, auditory and phonemic identification,
sound-symbol correspondence, rhyming and phonological awareness.

Earobics is the only scientifically-based program of its kind. The program is
ideal for children who require more phonics training than what is provided by
most schools. Earobics is critical for children with speech and language
delays, auditory processing and attention deficits, language-based learning
disabilities, and reading difficulties. Earobics PRO is used by
speech-language pathologists, audiologists, educational clinical
psychologists, and reading specialists in private practice, schools, and
hospitals throughout the United States and around world. Now, this
professional-grade program is available directly to parents in an affordable
and easy to use home version.

Visit www.cogcon.com for more information.


SUBJECT:    Worm Update     Date:  97-08-14 07:50:19 EST
From:  GIN3153

     For those of you who don't know me, I am the author of "can of worms"
posting previously and a few others.  At that time I felt desperate,
frustrated, hurt, angry, vindictive, etc....about what the school was doing
to my child.  Since then, with the help of so many others online, esp.
Ratatat, I now feel some of the same feelings but with a new power of
knowledge and control.
     Because of the lack of school cooperation we also went as far as talking
to an attorney.  However, unfortunately or fortunately, we could not afford
the retainer fee and she was not willing to work on contigency basis.  This
made me mad but also made me realize that I really needed to be the one
acting as my child's advocate.  So, with a lot of help, I have now taken on
that role and seem to be doing fairly well so wanted to share some of my
success with all of you in hopes that it will in turn help someone else.
  Here was our predicament.  Son, 12, ADHD dx at age 8, ODD dx at age 12,
received 14 referrals last yr with 11 of them resulting in suspensions.  No
IEP or 504, so there were no accommodations in place and school would not
help put anything into place.  I had NO knowledge of my son's rights or our
rights or any of the laws. I had made the mistake when he was first dx'd with
ADHD of thinking that meds were the only answer, no one explained it too
much.  I had tried talking to the teachers, counselor, assistent principal,
and principal and got absolutely nowhere.  Was told son needed to accept more
responsibility, was lazy, and just not putting forth any effort. I was ready
to give up.
    But deep down, I knew I couldn't.  I started researching and my greatest
luck was finding this board which set me straight and sent me in the right
direction.   In the past 5 months, I have learned more about ADHD, laws, 504,
IEP,  rights, my child, me, etc than in the past 4 yrs.
    One of our big problems was getting the school to test my son to find out
if he was eligible for IDEA and if not, at least know what his
strengths/weaknesses were so that we could plan a proper 504 for him.  I had
to make numerous phone calls, and write a load of letters quoting laws and
sending CC's to the world so that they knew I was not giving up.  I was given
excuses about so many children on list to be tested and not enough
psychologists working, etc.  I didn't accept that.  I continued writing
letters,making phone calls,  and it got to the point where they said they
would do the testing SOON.  I didn't accept that either, I wanted a concrete
date. Finally, after calling them 4 days in a row to find out an appointment
date, the psychologist called and set an appointment for Thursday of that
very week.  The testing is done and we are anxiously waiting the results.
And, they will get phone calls and letters again until we get them!
     In the meantime, I have drafted a 504 Plan of Accomodations to give to
the school to use until my son's evaluation process is complete.  At that
time, we will have to either modify the 504 or make an IEP, depending on the
results of the testing.  The evaluation process may take a bit longer if more
tests are needed but my son needed some accommodations NOW.  The school will
be receiving letters and phone calls until they put some of these
accommodations into place. Everytime they hear the phone ring, they will
think it is me on the other end, and when they get the mail, they will soon
be in the habit of looking for a letter from me!  Yes, I am going to nag,
because that is what I have to do!
   So, the result of all this?  Well, our doc, who specializes in ADHD, told
me that I am one of the first to get the district to do testing done this
quickly.  After listening to all I have done, and what I am still doing, he
has decided to let me handle the school, and he will only handle the meds,
unless I ask for his help with the school.  Made me feel great!
    Sorry so long, but wanted to share!  Hang in there everyone!

Gin







SUBJECT:    Re:Worm Update     Date:  97-08-14 11:35:02 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Made me feel great!  >

You should feel GREAT!  You've accomplished something that other parents did
know how to do, or gave up on in frustration.  And, think of all that you've
learned?  You are becoming an effective and empowered advocate for your
child.

Congratulations.

SUBJECT:    Re: Worm update     Date:  97-08-14 21:28:00 EST
From:  WTaylor134

Well Done!! You have once again proven to me that a parent who educates
him/herself on the issues is well armed to go into battle to fight for the
rights of their child.  Education is the key - along with being assertive and
confident.  Continued good luck - the squeaky wheel DOES get the grease,
after all, doesn't it!

SUBJECT:    Re:Auditory Process-Earobics     Date:  97-08-15 19:40:21 EST
From:  Bre5

"Earobics is the only scientifically-based program of its kind."
I think Earobics is based on the years of research work by Paula Tallal and
others, who are now using their truly scientifically based program, Fast
ForWord, to retrain the auditroy abilities of hundreds of kids. Earobics came
out after all the research by Tallal was published, and is trying to compete
with Fast ForWord, which is fine if they are truthful. They are certainly not
the only program, or the original result of the research. I was going to buy
Earobics as a supplement to Fast ForWord, which my son is doing now, but if
they are going to promote themselves as "the only scientifically-based
program of its kind" I have to wonder what else is not truthful about the
program.

SUBJECT:    Re:Auditory Process-Earobics     Date:  97-08-16 06:55:03 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Earobics as a supplement to Fast ForWord, which my son is doing now, but if
they are going to promote themselves as "the only scientifically-based
program of its kind" I have to wonder what else is not truthful about the
program.>

Every parent needs to be a good skeptic when it comes to sorting out what's
good and what isn't.  A healthy dose of doubt before plunging is always a
good idea.  If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck . . .

SUBJECT:    G/T with
ADD     Date:  97-08-17 23:15:16 EST
From:  RunToMuch

As a parent of a 12yr/f described above and as an educator myself, I would
like to hear from others who may have trouble with a program called the
Accelerated Reading Program.  It is not for all children, but is used across
the board in all of our regular ed classes K-12.  My daughter is beginning to
hate reading because of this.   We have tried co-operative reading with her
as well as books on tape.  After a full day at school, she does not want to
sit down and read.  I have tried 504 with no results.  Any suggestions.
Ratatat, you seem to be pretty well versed in these areas.
Help! As I don't want another year like the last one.   Thanks!

SUBJECT:    Re:G/T
with ADD     Date:  97-08-18 09:13:08 EST
From:  TLVAIL

I have a 12 yr old son who is in the AG program and ADD.  In our school the
Accelerateed Reader program is voluntary.  The students can earn extra points
in class by reading then taking the tests.  Is it mandatory for your
daughter?  The reading requirements for the AG Language Arts class are
extremely extensive so my son did little extra last yr.  We found it helpful
to schedule a "reading time" daily.  He either read something assigned from
class or an AR book but always read an hour daily.  Getting into a regular
habit seemed to help.  In addition, I got a copy of the AR list and found
many of them that I knew he'd enjoy at a used book store- That way they're
always available.

SUBJECT:    Re:Accelerated Reader     Date:  97-08-18 16:41:20 EST
From:  Bre5

Accelerated Reader, where students read books and take tests about them on
the computer is very popular at our school. Many teachers and parents seem to
love it, but I have found some problems with it. My son is a very reluctant
reader, so we are lucky to get through just a few pages a day, with my help.
The kids take the tests whenever they finish a book and have some free time
to use the class computer, which also needs to be free. The kids that are
successful at this remember all the time to watch for a free moment to take
the test. Whenever we had finally finished a book I would remind my son in
the morning to take the test, but it just doesn't stay in his mind long
enough during the day. We read several books but he only took tests on a few.
Once too much time had gone by where he hadn't remembered to take the test,
he wouldn't remember enough details to pass the test. In our school the kids
earn points and there is a monthly assembly with prizes. Many kids eagerly
competed for the prizes, often even attemting to taking tests without reading
the books. My son was not motivated enough by the prizes to want to read or
to remember to take the tests, or maybe felt it would be too difficult a goal
to meet. My son never earned enough points for a prize, even though we read
many books together. Assemblies couldn't have been much fun for him. Also, I
tried taking a couple of the the tests on books we had read together and I
found the 5 or 10 questions to often be on superficial or unimportant
details. However, I know many people love the whole program, and I'm sure the
prizes must motivate a lot of kids to read, which is always good.

SUBJECT:
Re:Accelerated Reader     Date:  97-08-18 20:11:40 EST
From:  RunToMuch

Thank you TLVAIL and Bre5 for your response.  This is a required part of the
reading program at our school.  The fact that it should be an incentive and
reward or bonus program has been my arguement with our reading teachers.  I
am not the only parent in my district having trouble with this.  I, too, feel
that it should be voluntary.  I would be interested in finding out what part
of the country you represent.  We are in the East Texas area.  If you are
from Texas, you are familiar with the TAAS test that our students take.  She
scored high on the last, and got TAAS Recognition on the one before that, so
it is not a matter of reading skill that causes her problems.

SUBJECT:
Re:Accelerated Reader     Date:  97-08-19 20:32:37 EST
From:  TLVAIL

I'm in North Carolina- How many books are required?  Can she choose which
ones she wants to read or are they specified by her teachers?

SUBJECT:
Re:Accelerated Reader     Date:  97-08-20 18:22:07 EST
From:  RunToMuch

She is required to read anywhere from 25 to 35 points to get an A.  It
decreases by 2 points (35=100,34=98,etc.)  They choose, but from a specified
list.

SUBJECT:    Re:change of placement     Date:  97-08-21 18:38:46 EST
From:  Blessed141

Does this mean that a child must be returned to the exact school he was
suspended from for 10 days?  Our district put my son in an alternative
education school until we were forced to put a motion before the courts to
get him reinstated (he had a 504 plan in place and the school was just
starting to evaluate him for special ed when he was suspended).  I was told
that they were going to expel him anyway, even though his infraction could be
attitributed to his ADHD.  I know now they couldn't, but that is $7,000
later.  My son was out of school for 3 weeks and no teacher provided work for
him even though I contacted them all separately, put notes in their mail
boxes, etc.  He failed 2 subjects because this was right before finals and
the tests were almost 80% the last quarter's work.

SUBJECT:    Re:G/T with ADD--Acc
Reader     Date:  97-08-22 21:23:36 EST
From:  JJForbes

I am in the state of NC and my daughter has participated in the Accelerated
Reader program for the past 2 years (2nd & 3rd grade).  Her previous school
had "Family Reading Nights" twice a month, and we went faithfully and took
the tests.  In the media center where the tests were held, each grade level
had poster boards, and as kids took the test and made 100%, they wrote their
names on the board and got a sticker to put beside their name.

My child has always been a reluctant reader, and her teachers (especially in
2nd grade) and I pushed the program.  Well, 3/4 into the school year in 3rd
grade, I discovered that my daughter lied about making 100% on 2 of the tests
(taken the same night).  She did not CARE that she had earned points; What
was important to her was to have everyone see how many 100% stickers she'd
gotten!  Right then I decided to stop taking her to Family Reading Nights,
and I told her she didn't have to take a test each week when her class went
to the media center (taking tests were "encouraged" each week).  (When I
probed her about the 2 stickers she really didn't earn, she told me she would
take more tests until she earned two more 100%, and she wouldn't get the 2
stickers she normally would have earned.  That way, she paid back the two she
owed.  I didn't ask her to do this; This was her idea.)

It occured to me that the school was teaching perfection, and I didn't want
my daughter to think her work had no value if it's not perfect.  I think a
child should have earned a sticker (if they were going to do the sticker
idea) for PASSING a test.  It's my contention that, if a child is a good
reader, then he's not going to NEED a lot of encouragement to take the tests.
He'll do well.  I think the program doesn't reach all the kids it could be
reaching--all those reluctant readers like my daughter.

Over the 1-1/2 year period, my daughter took 60 tests, and passed 59.  She
failed a 4th grade level book in second grade.  Most of her scores were 90%
and above, and she earned around 30 points.  But, that had no impact on her;
The stickers did.  In fact, when she left that school, she still had 6 points
in the bank, but she didn't care about purchasing anything at the store.

She has been reassigned to another school, and that school is very proud that
they acquired the Accelerated Reader program 2 years ago.

At the beginning of the school year, I notified the pricipal of the new
school of my dissatisfaction with the way the previous school handled the
sticker situation.  I requested that my daughter not participate in the
program, unless SHE asked to.  I, too, watched her take one of the tests, and
I don't think the questions asked on the test really gauged understanding.  I
feel my daughter learns more with the questions I ask after we read...

SUBJECT:
Re:change of placement     Date:  97-08-22 22:00:51 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I assume your attorney has petitioned the court for re-payment of your
attorneys fees as it apepars you prevailed on this issue.

JFB

SUBJECT:    Books to read     Date:  97-08-26 15:50:27 EST
From:  SPCHRGM

I am updating myself since comming back to work and reexammining my parent
resources. Here's a good one:"Attention Deficit Disorder and Learning
Disabilities: Realities, Myths and Controversial Treatments", Ingersoll and
Goldstein, Doubleday Books, 1993.,ISBN 0-385-46931-4. Book has three
sections:
                 Attention DeficitHyperactivity Disorder and Learning
Disabilities:An Overview
                Effective Treatments for ADHD and Learning Disabilities
                 Out of the Mainstream: Controversial Treatments for Learning
and Attention Problems
     There is an Addenda section, it lists Information and Support Groups for
Parents and Recommended Texts for Parents.It's a good overview and critique
of a variety of approaches to the problem.  For your information.....Regina



SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-08-29 13:18:37 EST
From:  X CRIBER

I've just started reading this area again.  My son was placed in a
self-contained classroom in 2nd grade.  It's a very long story and I would
love to correspond more on this.  My son is very bright.  He was not someone
you would consider SED when he got into the self-contained class.  He could
not sit still and concentrate.  I knew nothing about ADD or ADHD, but the
when he was tested the psychologist (who had no kids at the time) said that
my son would have done so much better on his tests if he had been able to sit
still and not wander off, he would have done much better.  She didn't mention
anything about ADD.  She just said that I was obviously a poor parent who
simply did not discipline my child enough.

I wish I could tell you what my district put me though as a parent.  My son
is now definitely SED.
He's in middle school.  After a disasterous year, he was taken out on May
23rd, 1997 and put on home tutoring, which was an absolute joke.  I'll
explain later, if you wish.  My problems could fill a book though.

My son is very bright.  Without even trying his grades were continually A's
and B's.  They are now C's and D's.  He is now seriously behind because he's
done no work.  He keeps saying that he's bored, he's bored.  All this time
they have said that my son is lazy and that he doesn't know the work and
that's why he fails, not because he's bored.  I have worked with my son since
the time he was born with books and taking him to all sort of wonderful
places.  His television watching has always been Discovery Channel and PBS.

His television viewing with the advent of school has become less and less
educational and more and more escapist and stupid.  I asked him why this is
and he said those words "it's to escape the pain of school."

I'll continue this later, if it's all right with you.  Could you e-mail if
you get to read this.  I'm at my wit's end.

Thanks,

Cathy

SUBJECT:    Susan?      Date:  97-08-29 15:43:26 EST
From:  Bre5

Is Susan Setley (SusanS29) still participating, mybe with a new screen name?
I've missed her comments and insights and knowledge!

SUBJECT:    Re:Susan?      Date:  97-08-29 16:15:35 EST
From:  Ratatat

Bre,

Susan is still on line.  I bug her now and then to come over here and pay us
a visit.  She's been very busy with so many things.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED
category      Date:  97-08-29 16:18:10 EST
From:  Ratatat

<She just said that I was obviously a poor parent who simply did not
discipline my child enough.  >

Grrr.  What a horrid thing to say!

<All this time they have said that my son is lazy and that he doesn't know
the work and that's why he fails, not because he's bored. >

Have your requested that your son receive a full IDEA evaluation that
includes ADD/ADHD?  You have given a number of reasons why it should be
looked into that are completely valid.  In writing, request that your son be
evaluated for attentional problems by a specialist.

Have you contacted the Protection & Advocacy Agency in your state?  Or the
Office for Civil Rights?  You need to get some information about advocacy
gorups near you because you really need to get some solid information about
your rights.

SUBJECT:    Re:Auditory Process-Earobics     Date:  97-08-29 18:31:27 EST
From:  RRTeach

I have tried to obtain legitimate scientific data on these types of programs
but so far have only found testimonials and unscientific "studies" any
requests were answered with ads and solicitations to buy the programs. I
remain hopeful but VERY SKEPTICAL.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD & SED category      Date:  97-08-30 06:56:32 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I agree with Ratatat. Please take his advice.
         I am always supprised that adults, well meaning or not, don't look
beyound the obvious, and put there own interpertation of a childs behavior.
Children who are having difficulty in school don't know why essepecally if
they have a learning disability. The child interpertation of his own behavior
is not going to be very accurate. They say what they think, or what others
have told them. I'm bored may be the closet word he can find to describe why
he dosen't do well in school.
        To me that is no differnt then a child saying, I don't know, it's a
stock answer for a kid. Children don't have the capasity to interput thier
own behavior when they are having difficulty and don't know why they don't.
So they search for someting to describe why they perform as they do.
The teacher should look at a student who is not producing work in school and
not produce a label that is wrong and damaging.
        Request in wriitng for a full evaluation for your child. Take Care
Barb

SUBJECT:    Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-08-30 07:26:13 EST
From:  LGilb24634

I wrote a few months ago about my son who was 15 at the time and was put out
of school in February for noncompliant behavior.  He had been diagnosed with
ADD in 1st grade and was on Ritalin until the Spring of 1996.  The school
system, we discovered, had never completed final report and placement in the
1st grade.  Therefore, they had done nothing for him all these years in
school.  I did not know until he was put out of school what things they
should have done for him.
He was in a local psychiatric hospital in December 1996 for depression.  He
is still seeing a psychologist and psychiatrist.

After months of private testing and finally just this past week the school
finished their testing, we had our meeting on 8/28.  He has failed the 8th
grade twice.  They found no specific learning disabilities.  In fact, they
were amazed at how much he has learned in spite of the ADD and behavior
problems.  They are putting him under a 504 plan.  We have two high schools
nearby.  If the high school will agree, they are placing him into the 9th
grade.  The school is not the one he is suppose to go to because that school
is overcrowded and they said the principal can refuse him because he did not
officially pass the 8th grade.  The other school is moving their entire 9th
grade into a separate school which was recently vacated by the middle school
he use to attend.  Therefore, the classes will be smaller, which will be good
for him.

Transportation will be a small problem.  I have to take him, which is okay
since it's no problem to take him on my way to work.  Getting home will have
to be worked out.

My advocate was very please with how they handle 504 in this county.  They
suggested several things to help him, such as a tape recorder, carbon note
taking by a good student, a pocket dictionary at all times.  They are on a
block schedule so he will only have one teacher every day.  The other
subjects are taught every other day.  The committee will suggest that the
teacher he has every day be his "guardian" to make sure he has everything he
needs and that the 504 is followed.

I was pleased at how concerned they seemed about getting him into the right
program.  I thought they were rather defensive and not apologetic enough
about how they have failed him  all these years.

Sorry this is so long.  My son wants to return to school.  He has every good
intention of doing well.  Past experience has taught me that he will lose
enthusiasm once into the school year, unless the accommodations we will come
up with help change his attitude.  He has never been excited about learning.
But, he's never been under a 504 plan to assist him, either.  He has average
intelligence and is very talented in sports and plays guitar beautifully.

Does anyone have any ideas of things that may assist him under the 504
besides the things the committee has come up with?  We haven't written up the
plan, yet.  He's now on Cylert and Depakote rather than Ritalin.  In the past
he would get so off track so quickly in school--constant movement, or putting
his head down, talking to his peers.  This is the last chance he has to
finish school.  He knows an education is important.  I've explained to him
that we are going to help provide the tools for him at last, but the ball is
in his court.

I would appreciate any ideas or thoughts.

SUBJECT:    Re:New IDEA Laws re: Suspens     Date:  97-08-30 12:07:21 EST
From:  Danechris

This past year my son was suspended several times.  The longest period they
suspended him was for 4 days.  He was a special ed student and I asked for
home schooling since 4 days is too long a time.  (He was a 6th grader) They
were very quick to fax me the information stating it would have to be for 10
or more conse days.  I had to pull teeth just to get the daily assignments he
was missing.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-08-30 13:44:12 EST
From:  MarRigby

LGilb24634

"I thought they were rather defensive and not apologetic enough about how
they have failed him  all these years."

Were any of the professionals at this meeting the same ones that were at the
previous meeting so many years ago? If they weren't there, then they are not
to blame for a previous team's inaction. I've been to many PPTs where looking
back at the records, there were many poor decisions made, or no action taken
to help a student. However, a new team should not be responsible for someone
else's neglect. What's important here is that the present team is willing to
work with your son and you now.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-08-30 17:51:31 EST
From:  LGilb24634

To MarRigby--I was very happy with this team's true concern for my son.  They
were not the ones who evaluated him in the first grade.  I have found there
are so many children in our county system that this has happened to.  I feel
disgusted with the school system here in general because of how they have
dealt with my son and others.  I want to shout from the roof tops to other
parents of children who are in lower grades and have ADD.  The school system
here does not advise parents of their children's rights.  I have had to learn
all I know from the good people here on the net, advocates and everything I
have been able to read.  The school system told me nothing until I approached
them.  They would have allowed my son to become a drop out.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage
Son with ADD     Date:  97-08-31 05:39:57 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Does anyone have any ideas of things that may assist him under the 504
besides the things the committee has come up with? >

Please take a look in the Special Education Forum library.  I've placed a
number of files in there which should be helpful to you including
accommodations for the classroom.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-08-31 15:28:17 EST
From:  MarRigby

LGilb24634:

You have every right to be upset! School System administrators (not including
principals, VPs) are mostly concerned with how the district's money  is being
spent, and they will "interpret" the laws accordingly.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-01 05:34:21 EST
From:  LGilb24634

<School systems administrators concerned about how money is spent...will
interpret laws accordingly.>

You're so right.  My advocate notified the school system in April about their
dropping the ball in my son's case.  They had ample time to get him tested
and provide summer help for him if necessary.  They drug it out over the
entire summer and finally completed the testing 3 administrative days prior
to school starting.  He's not even going to start the first day because they
have not completed arrangements with the high school he is to go to.

I have never been a confrontational person.  I'm known in the neighborhood
and in the school as that nice "Mrs. . ........".  This is the first "cause"
I have ever fought for in my life.  I was ignorant about what the school
system should have been doing for him in the past, but now I know.  Unless
they do what they are suppose to do, they will begin dreading hearing from
me.

I also realize my son will have to have a different attitude.  We have a lot
of work ahead of us and I pray this will all work out for him.

I can't thank everyone on line enough for all the information and supporting
comments over the past few months.  Thank you all so much.

SUBJECT:    EH/SED combo
class     Date:  97-09-05 16:19:49 EST
From:  TrmptPlyrS

Is it legal to combine both EH and SED students in a classroom? My school
eliminated our SED unit due to not having any students at the start of the
year. Now, we are getting a SED student and he is being placed in the
intermediate EH unit. Isn't that putting the other students at risk?
Please E-mail me at [e-mail]
Thank you.
Andrea

SUBJECT:    Add/Adhd     Date:  97-09-09 11:48:59 EST
From:  BossMom856

Hi I wanted to share with everyone that not all school are slow to helping
parents with ADD or ADHD. I live in Portland, Oregon and my son's schoo he
goes to isl Richmond Grade School is great for kids with ADD or ADHD. The
school tested him and found that he was ADD and needed help and they gave it
to him. He gets speech with the speech teacher and reading and spelling help
from the special Education teacher.
My son is 3 grade now and I wanted to make sure they put in a class that the
teacher understood his needs and they told me thats what they do when placing
the kids in classes. I was so thrilled to hear that. His teacher so far seems
great, its his first year with having a man for a teacher and the school felt
that having a man teacher would be good for my son.
I feel we are so lucky to have a great school that understands my son ADD
needs and help us in anyway we need. I wish other school were like Richmond
and understood ADD or ADHD.
Good luck to all of you ADHD or ADD parents . Dana Wood


SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-09 13:59:05 EST
From:  Socadream

If the ADD severely impairs your sons learning (which it sounds like it
deffinatley did) according to IDEA (memo of 91') he can also be qualified for
spec ed services under OHI (Other Health Impaired). Most districts want to do
the "504" route if the parent is not "school rights savy" and just do
accomadations not actual services (even though those are also available if
needed, under 504).  More programs are available that could possibly help
him-under IDEA.  Just a thought you might want to investigate further, since
he does not have much time left to aquire the skills he'll need to funtion in
society and get a decent job/advanced education.

SUBJECT:    Re:Add/Adhd     Date:  97-09-10 18:41:42 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Thanks for the info!  It's really nice to hear about some positive things
going on for a change!

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-10 18:42:38 EST
From:  TLVAIL

This is not true where I'm from.  The school would rather identify a child
under OHI because they can draw funds-  504 does not draw any funds.

SUBJECT:
TLVAIL     Date:  97-09-10 21:52:18 EST
From:  Diana0309

I'm in Harnett County next to Wake.  And the schools here don't mention 504
or IDEA unless the parent knows they exist!  I hear Wake county is much more
supportive with ADHD.  Unfortunately, in NC it varies county to county. :(
TL, I had e-mailed you back in spring, probably don't remember. You had
posted asking for place to go in NC and I recc. Chapel Hill, though you had
already found it yourself. <G>
Read you and child were tested...interesting results.:)  I find myself
wondering if I am...Drink pots of coffee and 2 packs cigarettes at this
point!!

SUBJECT:    ADD     Date:  97-09-11 01:29:45 EST
From:  LStar53746

HOW DO YOU FIND TEXT BOOKS ON TAPE?

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD     Date:  97-09-11 06:41:25 EST
From:  Meyersons4

I think the Reading for the Blind and Dyslexic does texts on tape.  Contact
them at www.rfbd.org.

Good luck.

Mary

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-11 07:48:17 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, somone clear things up for me. From my understanding IEP's draw
fundiing, 504 plans do not. Have I miss read that?
       Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-11 10:20:02 EST
From:  CHSMom

That's correct, Barb

Deb

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-11 17:05:34 EST
From:  Ratatat

<From my understanding IEP's draw fundiing, 504 plans do not. Have I miss
read that? >

IDEA is a federally funded program law.

504 is a broad disability civil rights law. (No extra funds for
compliance).

SUBJECT:    Re:TLVAIL     Date:  97-09-11 19:42:00 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Diana- I used to work in Harnett County!!  They won't mention 504 unless
asked but they have trained there people in the requirements.  I think the
rural districts are scared because they don't have the needed funds- What
they don't realize is that most 504 accomodations don't cost a thing and in
my opinion wouldn't be necessary with "best practices" in teaching.
Re: the testing-  I'm not smoking at all and don't miss it- No caffene
either!  I feel better and am more productive than I have been in years!  It
really is worth checking out if you have questions.  I read a great book-
Sari Solden- Women with ADD.  I cried and laughed through it and totally
identified!

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-11 19:43:41 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Barb- That's the way I understand it.  That's why many districts would prefer
to provide services by identifying a child OHI rather than use a 504- Same
accomodations but they are written into an IEP and funded.

SUBJECT:    Re:TLVAIL     Date:  97-09-11 21:25:18 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote "What they don't realize is that most 504 accomodations
don't cost a thing "
          In fact many schools are begining to realise that in fact children
with 504 plans can/or may cost them as much as children with IEP's.
         Each of my children has a different plan one has a 504 and the other
has an IEP. Both get the same services, word processors and accomedations.
The school only gets funding for the one child, but both cost the school the
same amount of money to service.
         Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-11 21:28:15 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Tival, Now I have a question. Isn't OHI a diagnosis used only for 504
plans? I didn't know that OHI was a diagnosis for an IEP. Enlighten me
please. :)
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-11 23:52:49 EST
From:  CHSMom

Barb -

OHI is an IDEA classification.  "A pupil has limited strength, vitality or
alertness, due to chronic or acute health problems...which adversely affects
a pupil's educational performance."

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-12 05:31:31 EST
From:  LGilb24634

Just thought I would let you know what is happening with my son.  The school
system placed him into the 9th grade.  He started two days after everyone
else.  They said he should be under a 504 plan because of the ADHD and
emotional problems.

The guidance councelor set up what I thought was to be the 504 meeting where
we would write the plan.  When my advocate and I arrived, all of his teachers
were there, as well as the guidance councelor.  As it turned out, the way
they do this is the special education person should have been there.  We
would have come up with the plan, then present it to the teachers.  The
special education person had not been notified so I have to take off another
day from work and go back.  I am getting so disgusted with this school
system.  I have used most of my leave this year between taking my son to
psychologists, psychiatrists and running back and forth to school for
meetings.  I'm so thankful that my supervisor has been understanding, but I'm
so afraid his patience will wear out.  I'm not complaining about using my
leave for my son.  If we can help him get through school, I'm willing to do
anything.  But I don't work because I want to.  I have to.

The middle school special education teacher who did the testing had assured
us she would contact the high school se teacher and discuss my son with her
so they could get things set up.  She didn't.  Also, they had not received my
son's school records until the day we arrived for this meeting.

We did get to discuss some things with his teachers before the administration
determined we could not write the plan that day.  They all seemed to be
willing to assist and they agreed to do everything I suggested.  We didn't
get to finish our suggestions, but some of the things we asked for were a
tape recorder for lectures, an assignment book that the teachers would look
at every day or have a good buddy student check for him.  I mentioned that I
would like for him to possibly have a note taker later on if needed.  Right
now he says he is determined to take his own notes and he is doing it!  Two
of his teachers said they prepare notes in order to teach their class and
would be glad to give those to him.  He is on a block schedule, where he has
one class every day for 50 minutes and the others he will have every other
day, 90 minutes each.  We told them it would be hard for him to sit still for
90 minutes and asked if they would periodically excuse him to get water or
stretch or run errands for them.  They agreed.  We asked for special
attention in weak areas.  His overall testing was good, but there were
sub-catagories where he had weaknesses.  His advocate asked them to have the
high school special education teacher look at his scores again, because she
thinks he needs an IEP until he catches up in these weak areas.  The testing
was done by the middle school.

So, we'll go back another day.  I'll let you know what happens.

SUBJECT:
Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-12 09:09:52 EST
From:  Ratatat

< Isn't OHI a diagnosis used only for 504 plans? I didn't know that OHI was a
diagnosis for an IEP. Enlighten me please. :)>

Barb,

OHI, Other Health Imparied, is one of the 13 mandated categories under IDEA.
If a student is found eligible as OHI, then automatically that means they
must have an IDEA/IEP.

504 is a non-categorical law.  Meaning, that the student does not need to
meet the rigid criteria of specific categories in order to have their
disabilities accommodated.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-12 11:10:50 EST
From:  Mars000210

Thanks everyone, proves you can learn something new everyday.
           Take Care Barb


SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-12 14:08:03 EST
From:  Diana0309

Can someone explain how to qualify either ADHD child or reading disability
under OHI. I understand from NICHCY that each state has there own
guidelines...and in NC ADHD is not recognized as *OHI*  very, very confusing.
Federal says one thing state SpEd says another.
I am so frazzled anymore between all the agencies giving me different
statements than what I've learned online.......NICHCY---> states are allowed
some leeways, including what they *see* as a disability! ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH.
Diana
PS Does *OHI* require IQ/achievement deficit points, or just obvious childs
needs?

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-12 17:18:34 EST
From:  Ratatat

<in NC ADHD is not recognized as *OHI*  very, very confusing.  >

That alone is discriminatory and a change of the intent of congress when they
included "limited alterness" and neurological disorders as inclusive under
OHI.  I would suggest you contact your state's Office for Civil Rights and
ask THEM to interpret between federal regulations and a state's
interpretation.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-12 22:55:01 EST
From:  Diana0309

Thanks, another option another hope....I feel like I'm in a *game*  me vs the
system.  So far, I'm gaining ( for the children) though,
physically/emotionally draining to me! Thanks Ratatat.  Diana

SUBJECT:    Re:TLVAIL     Date:  97-09-13 11:17:54 EST
From:  TLVAIL

What I mean is that many times parents are asking for accomodations that are
just part of good teaching and aren't a "money issue".  I think it's sad to
have to go to a formal plan of action on simple things like read aloud tests
or individualized organization systems.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-13 11:19:13 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Barb- Other Health Impaired is a special education category- When a child has
a medical condition that is effecting their ability to learn they can get
services with an IEP under this category.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-13 11:21:40 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Diana- I work in NC and we classify children with ADHD as OHI when they need
academic interventions so it must just be a "local thing".

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-13 12:16:07 EST
From:  Diana0309

TLVAIL,
So, if a child has reading comprehension and memory problems, academically
disorganized ie. receives 0s everyday in violin class because *loses* music
sheet in ? locker.  All ADHD related academic stuff and 504 not *strong*
enough. And this with medication...though demands in routine too much. Not
enough time at locker.  They've been *evaluating* him since May 97 and now
this school year about 4 weeks and report how great he's doing.  Though, when
I look at his notes I wonder...and the few accomadations he has are
inconsistently followed.  In one class he sits beside a girl who sleeps alot,
snores and asks him to wake her when something comes up...now what is
interesting to him is watching the girl and not listening to science.  If
they understand ADHD as much as they profess then why don't I see it?  Not,
even minimal accomadations, as I see it.  So, I'm not sure if OHI is needed
or I need to set up camp at the middle school and give lists of
accommadations I feel they are overlooking....complete assessment has never
been done or perhaps it's ongoing.  I haven't been informed when 504 meetings
occur, nor invited. How should I proceed? Counselor has welcomed me to call
or come speak with her, whenever, necessary.  Currently, I'm gathering
evidence for them again.(Same at primary school *show* us or *prove* it)
:(

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-13 12:23:50 EST
From:  CHSMom

Diana - I'm a little confused.  Has your son ever had a complete formal
assessment by the school?  If not, it sounds like it would be a good idea.
The results of the assessment may enable you to have him identified OHI under
IDEA.  You need to put the request in writing.
I found middle school to be the worst experience.  I had a terrible time
getting the teachers to implement his accomodations, and he had an IEP.  I
never understood why.  This goes back to a previous post about good teaching
practices.  It's as if the teachers have a "we" vs. "they" attitude.  I
always though the student should come first.  Whether the accomodations are
under a 504 or an IEP, my experience has been that it is still up to the
individual teacher as to whether or not the plan is adhered to.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-13 12:24:58 EST
From:  CHSMom

TLVAIL - Identifying ADD students eligible for IDEA under OHI is not just a
local thing.  It is federal

SUBJECT:    Re:TLVAIL     Date:  97-09-13 20:03:13 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I think it's sad to have to go to a formal plan of action on simple things
like read aloud tests or individualized organization systems.>

I agree.  Education has become too prescriptive.  However, by formalizing the
accommodations into a 504 plan then the student is *guaranteed* to have those
needed accommodations with him/her each year and it's no longer left to the
will or ability of each individual teacher.

SUBJECT:    Re:Read-aloud-tests     Date:  97-09-14 15:22:43 EST
From:  MarRigby

This past week the new geography teacher in our junior high gave her whole
class a geography quiz that she read aloud to them. (The 7th grade is
homogeneously grouped), and includes many slow learners and some of my LD
students. Well, one of my students who studied with her best friend the night
before earned a 99. And the best part was that she didn't have to struggle to
read the test, or have someone read it to her. She did what the whole class
did. I also gave my 7th graders the study time a couple of periods before the
geography period. She proudly told the teacher upon walking in the room that
she was ready for the quiz.  At lunch I asked the teacher how she did, and
she said she'll correct it by the end of the day, so Melissa will know how
she did. Well after she got the good news she flew to my room with her study
partner and told me her grade. Of course I gave each of them an award and
told her how proud I was of her!

But that teacher unknowingly provided an accomodation that was in her IEP,
and she was not singled out. It can be done!

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-14 21:49:06 EST
From:  LGilb24634

Somebody give me some encouragement, please.  After all the psychologists and
psychiatrists my son visited this summer, after the school finally finished
their testing two days before school started, after THEY told me they were
placing him in the 9th grade at high school and THEY told me to take him and
interview with the principal at the high school--NOW I get a call from the
school that my son HAS NOT BEEN PLACED, contrary to what they said I told the
high school principal.  The discipline officer who put him out of school in
February is the one who told them my son HAS NOT BEEN PLACED.  I have to meet
with him on Monday.  The team who met at his middle school after his testing
told me they were placing him into the 9th grade.  The principal of the
middle school called me at work and told me to go to the high school and have
an interview with the principal because they were placing him into the 9th
grade!

Am I missing something?  Why do you think they are putting me through all
this?  They act as if they have done nothing wrong as far as my son goes.
This is coming from a system who ignored for 10 years the fact that he has
ADHD and they knew it..  This is the system who did not test him when he
began to fail.  This is the system that failed to test him when he was
admitted to a psychiatric hospital for depression.  They are more than guilty
of the child find law.  They act as though they are not worried.  Am I
missing something?



SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 08:27:10 EST
From:  Diana0309

CHS,
In both childrens situations, 9+12yo I took the first step and had them
privately evaluated. Then presented the results to school. 12yo dx. ADHD and
9yo pending teacher Conners since his evaluation results weren't given to me
till June.  I had to get 12yo tested and evaluated first since his needs were
most pressing and had been overlooked for so long.  A 504 was initiated in
May 97 for him with a date of 6 weeks given to meet again.  I assumed that
during the 6 weeks they would continue to assess his strengths and weaknesses
and we would sit down and discuss results and write more needed
accomadations......IF I wait, they will wait till his frustration and
impulsivity and emotionality shows itself again Boom--->volcano then gives up
and wants to give up on going to school. I would like a preventive plan not
treat the after effects..sigh :(  To answer your ?, no *assessment* has been
done so to speak of, just dx of ADHD and results of psychoeducational tests.
Diana

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-15 12:21:24 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

In general, in situations like this, I would call the special ed director and
indicate unless he is placed by tommorrow, you will want a an IEPC meeting to
determine why not.  Adminstrators do not place spec ed students, only the
Individualized Ed Plan "places" children.

Also, why did you not request substanbtial "comp ed" services during the last
IEP Committee (IEPC) meeting.  If you are that sure there was a "failure to
evaluate", you should have requested retor-active services to make up for
what your child was denied in prior years.

I just finished up an IEPC where the student had been failed before and the
District ignored ADD diagnosis (they gave him his meds so they "knew"),
ignored 30+ incidents of misconduct, etc.  Upon threat of a hearing they
agree to 4x month social worker, money to pay for psych services for next 4
years (50/50 split with parent), and weekly tutoring on top of regular IEPC
for 9th grade.

I am not saying that you may be able to receive anything for failure to
"child find", but at least the claim may work as an incentive to have your
child placed now, with proper services and accomodations.

JFB - generalized comments and not specific legal advice.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage
Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-15 12:21:51 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

See my post of today

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 12:25:01 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

Demand in writing an eval for special ed (IDEA) eligibility.  They will have
from 30-45 school days to complete eval, detemrine eligibility and design
Individualized Ed Plan (IEP), if eligible. If not eligible under IDEA, most
Districts will then do a written 504 "accomodation" plan.

Again, I do not accept "unreasonabe" delays for my clients, you should not
either.

JFB

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 15:52:15 EST
From:  Diana0309

JFB,
I did ask in writing for SpEd eval. for 9yo, after 3weeks of basically
nothing...was told he didn't have needed point difference on Wisclll/WJ-R.  I
went back to school last week spoke with counselor, then Principal(who
acknowledged receiving my letter) I spelled out what I was seeing ie. letter
reversals, has made his letters *his* way, no decoding skills, even words he
should know aren't always recognized...to make a long story short...I think
he has a learning disability effecting reading,writing, and spelling.  All
major necessary academic skills.  He has managed thus far to keep his head
above water till now.  I think he has reached the peak of his coping skills
and behavioral problems are becoming abundant!!!  Personally, I'm ready to
just stick my head in the ground--I am so TIRED.  BTW, in NC its 90days for
eval.  At the rate we're going 1/2 the year will be over and I'm sure they
will still drrraaag there feet. I now wait another 1-2 weeks for them to have
504 meeting.  Diana

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 17:21:24 EST
From:  CHSMom

<< I assumed that during the 6 weeks they would continue to assess his
strengths and weaknesses and we would sit down and discuss results and write
more needed accomadations.....>>

do not assume they will do anything, they won't.  As BigJohn stated, you need
to request, in writing, a complete assessment.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 18:42:17 EST
From:  TLVAIL

I think I would send a written request that my child be evaluated by a full
psychoeducational team.  If the referral/testing process has already been
started then it should be completed within 90 days.  In the meantime, ask for
a  review of the 504 plan.  It is my understanding that the 504 is not
"stronger" than the IEP- in other words, you may have just as hard a time
getting some teachers to follow the IEP as you would a 504.  Ask for a
meeting to find out why the 504 isn't being followed.  I've gotten the best
results by being concerned and caring and asking what I as a parent can do to
make the situation better- then- ask for things the teachers can do to make
the situation better.  Draw the teachers into the "team" aspect of helping
your child.  What specific things are not being followed?

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 18:45:55 EST
From:  TLVAIL

I was responding to Diana who said that in her part of NC they didn't
identify ADD kids as OHI- I realize it's a federal law but sometimes local
districts choose how they are going to deal with things- as least until a
parent presses the issue.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-15 20:35:01 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

Again, once an evalutaion is done, the actual decision regarding eligibility
must, by law, be made in a committee setting.  At least one person who was
part of the evaluation must be there to present the data.  This is your
chance to present your date (letter reversal samples, etc.) or have your
professionals present for you.

Again, if you disagree with their eval (may be biased or incomplete), by law,
you have the righ to request a District funded Independent Educational Eval
(IEE) at a facility of your choice (although they will give you a list of
their approved sources - I dont always follow there list - again potential
bias).   The you reconvene the IEC meeting and the committee must, by law,
consider the IEE data.  Then if eligibility is denied, all that is left is a
due process hearing and a "battle of the experts".

If you have done all this, and you don't want to go through a hearing, you
are right, I would bail out to 504 accomodations.  Again, I am not sure of
the time frame (ask RaTaTat), but it can't be that long.

Hope this helps.

JFB

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-15 22:15:06 EST
From:  Ratatat

<The team who met at his middle school after his testing told me they were
placing him into the 9th grade.  The principal of the middle school called me
at work and told me to go to the high school and have an interview with the
principal because they were placing him into the 9th grade!>

One thing is for sure.  They can't place your child without your consent, nor
can they change his placement without your consent.  Sounds like it's time
for you to reconvene an IEP meeting to get to the bottom of this.

SUBJECT:    Re:
OHI     Date:  97-09-15 22:16:39 EST
From:  Diana0309

Thanks everyone, I'm off to middle school in AM and in the PM to primary
school for teacher meeting.  Meeting with CHADD in the evening( locally) to
start planning how to exert more pressure for change in this county.  It's
difficult online to explain the full picture but, always helps to get input
from others.  Redirects me, knowing others care and help.  Diana

SUBJECT:    Re:
OHI     Date:  97-09-15 22:45:45 EST
From:  PPear31329

I went through a similar situation last year with my son in middle school.
His I.E.P. clearly says he has reading difficulties, and ADD.  But after our
team meeting they decided to ignore his I.E.P. and put my son in full
inclusion with no resource teacher.  I called the school, and they put him
into a compleatly segregated special needs room.  I called another meeting,
and fought to get him into Math Science and Social Studies with reg ed.
children.  They fought me every step of the way.  I took me the whole first
term to get them to follow his I.E.P.  Brought a child advocate with me to no
avail.  Then the teachers refused to modify for him.  That is when I started
documentation and brought it before the school board.  Guess What this year
his team of teachers were picked by the supper.  And he is in a resource room
with 3 other kids not 15. and has a resourse teacher to follow those 4 kids
through the day.  Get Tough....and Stay tough.
I would love to be everyone friend, and not rock the boat.  But if I don't
fight for my kid who will???

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-16 04:29:08 EST
From:  LGilb24634

I have met with the discipline officer and it looks as though today I will
get my son into the 9th grade in the proper school in his district.  At this
point I want to get his 504 at the high school in place.  The discipline
officer has already relayed to the high school to get it done.  There has
been a lot of miscommunication in our school system between the different
schools which has caused a lot of confusion for us.  The left hand doesn't
know what the right hand is doing.  After my son is settled in school and
under a plan, I want to file a complaint with someone so that other parents
don't have to go through everything we have.  I want to file the complaint
with someone who can force the school system to improve their program to
screen children who are having problems.  The school system has made this as
difficult for us as possible.  If I had not been able to see this through, my
son would still be in the 8th grade and would probably drop out of school.  I
thought about writing to the school superintendent, the state education board
and/or the ACLU or someone in the federal government.  It is unbelievable
what we have had to go through since February and I know there are other
parents who have gone through the same thing.  What do you think?  What
organizatin would be the best to file a complaint with?  I know there are
parents with children in our school system who don't know where to begin when
something like this comes up.  I want to help them.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-16 06:46:54 EST
From:  Meyersons4

<<I would love to be everyone friend, and not rock the boat.  But if I don't
fight for my kid who will???>>

Ditto!

Another thing I tell my kids (& myself!) regularly is that I can't always
change things (esp. people's attitudes), but I *can* speak out.  Even if it
doesn't change things, it makes me feel better in the long run -- and less of
a victim.

This board is wonderful -- I log on every morning after my kids leave for my
daily dose of support, encouragement, and gratitude.

Mary

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-16 07:46:43 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

Your complaint probably should be made to the regional office of the Office
of Civil Rights (OCR), as it may be the District violated Section 504 of the
Rehabilitation Act of 1974.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-16 08:38:40 EST
From:  Ratatat

< That is when I started documentation and brought it before the school
board.>

Documentation is often the key.  It's important sometimes to "generate"
documentation too.  Phone calls can be followed up with short letters
reiterating what is said, for instance.  When my daughter was first diagnosed
I wrote about 50 letters to organizations and advocacy agencies all over the
country.  The single best piece of advise I got was from a special education
lawyer.  He said, if you want to guarantee your child gets an appropriate
education *and* if you want to *avoid* problems, litigation, due process,
etc., the bery best way to do that is to document from day one as if you are
preparing to go to court.  He said, the best way to avoid court is to prepare
for court, i.e., document, document, document.

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-16 18:55:17 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

RaTaTat is right - documentation - documentation - documentation is the
watchword of special ed attorneys.  That is the first thing I ask for before
I will take on a case is a complete set of the ed records and every letter
the parents and school have exchanged.  Frankly the "I said" - "they said"
just doesn't carry any weight.

If you start from day one viewing this as a case you will be making in front
of a judge or hearing officer, the chances are good you will never be
required to do so.

JFB

SUBJECT:    Re: OHI     Date:  97-09-17 00:37:03 EST
From:  PPear31329

The funny thing is, when I was everyone friend and went along with whatever
was said, my son got nothing.  I find my self to be a very strong advocate
for my son now, but I am not good at note taking, so when I go to meetings I
bring a friend, as a note taker and witness.... You should see the faces of
everyone in the room, when I walk in with a friend and when they see my
extreamly large note book, with tests, notes every I.E,P. ever written for
him.  Phone Logs of every conversation, I now make carbon copies of all notes
and bought a scanner to make copies of work sheets with crude remarks on
them.  So far this year eveything is fairly good, but I am already
documenting. Its pretty good when you walk into school to find out the
superentendant has already been their checking on the progress of your child,
and has hand picked his team of teachers for the following year......

SUBJECT:
How do I become an advocate     Date:  97-09-20 14:32:33 EST
From:  Njcrom

Add is not a recognized problem in our schools in Louisiana. Exactly what is
an advocate and how do I become one. Please e-mail me info at [e-mail].
Thanks

SUBJECT:    Re:Reasonable Accommodations     Date:  97-09-22 17:47:50 EST
From:  RNarb 1

so called negative reinforcement isn't necessarily always wrong . there
should be a balance of ideas . otherwise how could our future generations
(todays kids ) ever be accountable for thier actions. My local educators tell
me continuously that my disabled son is doing great regardless of what he
does .I do not agree ,I have seen his  "good " work and his not good . Thier
intention is clearly to get him through each grade to the next set of people
who will deal with him.
     I think he would be better off staying back until he could catch up a
little .( he is 4 years behind his classmates). Whoever had this bright idea
of never keeping kids back was probably motivated by the strained budgets
more than childrens best interest. Any of you well schooled psychology types
or others I would welcome your comments and opinions .

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio
Dis.     Date:  97-09-22 18:12:08 EST
From:  RNarb 1

   I think that I have one of those kids who is taking tons of the teachers
time because he is disruptive otherwise . However I don't believe the
teachers time is well spent on him anyway because he is in 6th grade on a
first grade level and it is all wasted time . I am not exaggerating, the
teachers say he is on a 3rd grade level which is still not  ok, for him to be
in with 6th graders .But that is just a lie and a ruse anyway so they can
avoid having to deal with him in a more appropriate setting .

SUBJECT:
Re:ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-09-22 18:56:41 EST
From:  RNarb 1

  maybe the concept of labeling and categorizing kids is part of the problem
more than the solution . I realize it has to be that way but I just think
they are each a blessing and a challenge in unique ways .Hearing all these
labels tossed around seems like generalizing a complex set of variables .
.... just an opinion.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/Audio Dis.     Date:  97-09-23 07:24:16 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

If the descrepency you discribe is measureable, why is your child not
eligible for IDEA based special education services.  If so, he could be in
small classes where children of various levels of skills recieve
individualized instruction.

SUBJECT:    ADD - Diagnosis     Date:  97-09-23 20:05:04 EST
From:  Kskap

Can anyone tell me who is authorized to diagnose a child with ADD?  Is it
only a pediatric neurologist?  Or can an ed. evaluator or psychologist
diagnose it as well?

SUBJECT:    ADHD and Tourette's     Date:  97-09-23 23:32:45 EST
From:  PHODAN

My stepson has both ADHD and Tourette's. We are now faced with the dilemma of
what to do with regard to schooling. He has been elaborately falsifiing his
assignment book to show that he doesn't have any homework. We have 2 failing
notices from his teachers. He says that he did it because he is lazy. He just
moved down to live with us because he was being bullied up in CO and to help
with school. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and
Tourette's     Date:  97-09-24 00:29:45 EST
From:  CHSMom

I also have a son with Tourette's and ADHD (and obsessive compulsive
disorder).  How old is your stepson - what grade?  Does he have an IEP or a
504 plan?  There is not a simple answer to your question.  I would be happy
to try and help if you want to email me with more info.
Debbie

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD - Diagnosis     Date:  97-09-24 07:08:13 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Can anyone tell me who is authorized to diagnose a child with ADD?  Is it
only a pediatric neurologist?  Or can an ed. evaluator or psychologist
diagnose it as well?>

The most important thing about a evaluation for ADD is that it be
comprehensive and conducted by someone who undestands ADD, learning disorders
and other types of disorders that can impact ADD.  Though a pediatric
neurologist can certainly diagnose ADD, they may not be prepared to do the
full psycho-educational testing that also needs to be done to uncover all
possible answers for a child's difficulty in learning.  ADD is not always the
answer, or not always the only answer.  It's also important to make sure that
a child is evaluated for any kind of emotional or psychological impairment.
For instance, children can develop depression and many of the symptoms of
depresssion mimic ADD!  I would start with finding someone who's knowledgable
about children and learning disorders such as a child educational
psychologist, child psychologist or child psychiatrist.  If you have a major
university medical center near you, that can be a great place to start.  They
tend to be more on the up-and-up because they are teachinng and have to teach
from the latest research, etc.

SUBJECT:    Help, I'm a basketball coach     Date:  97-09-24 16:49:48 EST
From:  COACH J767

I need help.  I have a basketball player that I believe is ADD but has not
been diagnosed.  I don't know where to begin.  I have talked to two of her
teachers and they believe the same thing.  I don't know where to turn for
help and don't know how to help her.  I really don't believe that her mother
would agree to any kind of testing.  I would also like to know more about
ADD. Thanks for any help.  You may e-mail me at [e-mail].  By the
way I did have a player that was diagnosed with ADD, so I know a little.
Thanks again.



debbie

SUBJECT:    ADHD/Tourette's & playground     Date:  97-09-24 23:47:37 EST
From:  Weav3826

I will be attending a meeting with a friend of mine.  Her son is 8, ADHD and
Tourette's.  His afternoons prove to be very difficult for him in particular
the playground.  On the playground he often "touches" other children (at
times in inappropriate places).  We believe this is because of his ADHD and
Tourette's.  The school believes he can control himself.  Where can I find
suggestions on redirection or alternatives for him.  The school feels he
should be "punished" for his bad behavior, I don't agree if it is because of
his disabilities.  I believe it's their role to help him not punish him.  Any
suggestions?  Help!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD/Tourette's & playgro     Date:  97-09-25 00:02:13 EST
From:  CHSMom

Wow - this is a goldmine.  My son also has problems with touching, others and
things.  It is a touching compulsion, as aspect of Obsessive Compulsive
Disorder.  It is very commong in people with Tourette's.  How old is the
child?  Most of these children lack social skills, and the playground
environment is pure torture for them.  I would be happy to help you with the
rest of your concerns/questions... Does the child have an IEP?  The  school
doesn't have to do anything if there is no IEP (or 504 Plan).  Please email
if you wish, I have been doing "this" with my son for 7 years, and have quite
a bit of info.
Debbie

SUBJECT:    Re:Help, I'm a basketball co     Date:  97-09-25 08:03:07 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

<   have a basketball player that I believe is ADD but has not been
diagnosed.  I don't know where to begin. >

   It's always hard to know where to start. It is nice that you notice this
child is having difficulty of some sort that you want to help with. Have you
talked with this childs other teachers? Is the child having any acedemic
problems? A dignosis of ADD is usually only made after all other causes for
the childs areas of concern are ruled out that includes medical problems as
well as learning disabilities ( both these areas mimic ADD). Children who
have LD's can be ADD/ ADD children can have LD's, or they can stand alone.

   After you have explored with her other teachers if they have any
diffiuclties ( and if there is indead any learning concerns. Compile a list
of your combined observtions for this child. The parents may already be
concren themsleves ( you won't know this unless someone takes the time to
ask).

  A good approach which I as a parent would appreciate is not to sit down and
list all the childs diffiuclties, but rather to talk about the postives you
have found out about this child and then discuss your concerns in realtion to
how that is keeping her from performing at her best. Many parents don't
understand what ADD or learning disabilitie mean to their childs education,
they may have preconcieved notions that having a difficulty in this area is
tantamount to saying their child is stupid. It requires a lot of tack on the
shcools part to have a parent understand that what you are doing is looking
for a problem that is keeping this child from achieving her highest
potential.

   It is nice that you are concerned for this child. Get the other teachers
involved.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:Help, I'm a basketball co     Date:  97-09-25 19:47:33 EST
From:  Ratatat

See if you can find a copy of Teenagers with ADD by Chris Dendy.  It includes
every aspect of how ADD can impact a teenagers life reviewed in it.  It's a
wonderful resource.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD/Tourette's & playgro     Date:  97-09-25 19:51:12 EST
From:  Ratatat

<The school believes he can control himself.  Where can I find suggestions on
redirection or alternatives for him.  The school feels he should be
"punished" for his bad behavior, I don't agree if it is because of his
disabilities.  I believe it's their role to help him not punish him.>

When this child was evaluated did the practitioner write a report?  A report
should include recommendations for environmental modifications at school for
this child.

Also, there is a wonderful book called, "Teaching the Tiger:  A Handbook for
Individuals Involved in the Education of Students with Attention Deficit
Disorders, Tourette Syndrome or Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder," by Marilyn P.
Dornbush, Ph.D. and Sheryl K. Pruitt, M.Ed. that might be a good addition to
the school's professional shelfs.  It can be ordered from Hope Press at
1-800-321-4039.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-25 21:22:06 EST
From:  Sluggette

Did your son have an IEP in elementary school?  If so, he entitled to
continuing Special Education.  Even if he was found to be nondisabled for
some reason in the middle school, he is still entitled to special
accommodations under the 504 bill.  I suggest you try not to assume an
advisarial stance with your school district as in the end your goal is to
work together for the benifit of your son.  Yes, try to find an advocate in
your area.  What you want is to resume special services.  Ask for an IEP-
like meeting in which you clearly outline what your child needs.  What
preventative steps will the school take to help your child:  regular
counselor appointments, a school mentor(teacher) who the child can go to when
he needs to vent or cooldown, a quiet place where he can regain control, a
behavioral contract as to what he will do, what the school will do and how it
will be monitored as well as who will do the monitoring.  Out of school is
not the place for this child and there are many creative programs that can be
instituted within a school (special education or no) to help him be
successful.  Be assertive, but try to build a cooperative working
relationship with your school. It may require swallowing your pride and
biting your tongue til it bleeds, but your child is worth it!  Good
luck!

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-09-26 18:02:01 EST
From:  LGilb24634

Thanks.  Even though I think evil thoughts, I am nice as pie when I meet with
school personnel.  My son has never had an IEP or 504 plan.  The schools have
always told me there was nothing they could do.  They knew he had ADD.  They
were the ones who instituted the testing when he was in first grade and it's
been in his records all these years.  And I have told them each year.  Even
when he began to fail in middle school, they offered nothing and even told me
there was nothing to do for an ADD kid except give him his Ritalin, then he
should act like everyone else.

What I know now I have learned since February from this wonderful board, as
well as reading everything I can get my hands on.  The schools have never
told me anything.  My son does now have an advocate and I have even met with
a famous trial lawyer who won a supreme court case concerning ADD.  He also
happens to be a mentor to my son's advocate, so I know we're in good hands.

He has now been found eligible, finally, for a 504 plan due to his ADD and
depression.  We are to meet next week to write the plan.  So far, he's been
doing really well this year.  He seems more determined to get an education.
However, he is still depressed so he's never really "up" about anything.
He's really kind of a quiet kid unless he gets upset..

Thanks for your suggestions.  They were really helpful.  I'm open to any
helpful advice!

SUBJECT:    ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-09-27 01:21:43 EST
From:  Alice2053

I work as an in class support teacher in an elementary school.  I work with
many teachers and observe many styles of classroom management.  From my
observations it seems that many ADD/ADHD children may have this problem due
to learned behavior.  In our effort to stimulate childrens' zeal for learning
and free them from anxiety we have created monsters who want to do and say
what they please.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD     Date:  97-09-27 07:32:02 EST
From:  Ratatat

< In our effort to stimulate childrens' zeal for learning and free them from
anxiety we have created monsters who want to do and say what they please.>

ADHD is a complex disorder.  In no way can the behaviors one sees in children
with ADHD be automatically chalked up to a lack of will power over
self-control.  ADHD includes problems with self-regulation of impulses,
attention and motor activity.  Just like any other child, children with ADHD
need guidance and discipline - the difference is that they need more patience
while they learn, more repetition to learn and much, much more POSITIVE
reinforcement for the things they do correctly.

<I work as an in class support teacher in an elementary school.  I work with
many teachers and observe many styles of classroom management.  From my
observations it seems that many ADD/ADHD children may have this problem due
to learned behavior.>

I would suggest that you include some solid information in forming your
opinion that goes beyond simple classroom observation.  Teachers are the best
observers, but if they do not have specific training in the symptomology of
what they are observing then the basis for opinions might not be as valid as
one thinks.

The body of family interaction research conducted by Dr. Russell Barkley and
others has unequivocally demonstrated that simply providing more discipline
without any other interventions worsens rather than improves the behavior of
children with ADHD.  One can't make a paraplegic walk by applying discipline.
Similarly, one can't make a child with a biologically-based lack of
self-control act better by simply applying discipline alone.

SUBJECT:    FITTING IN     Date:  97-09-28 07:48:35 EST
From:  Ratatat

Reposted from another folder:

Teachers! Oct. 17, l997, New Jersey LDA statewide conference in Atlantic City
at the SANDS Casino and Hotel. Speakers are Dr. Jerome Schultz and Mr. Rick
Lavoie...theme is FITTING IN:Educating and Accepting the LD/ADHD Student in
Inclusion Settings. For more info call Ronee at 609/823-5608...vouchers and
puchase orders are accepted but time is running out. These speakers are
fantastic. Come join us!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD/Tourette's & playgro     Date:  97-09-28 10:16:23 EST
From:  Weav3826

Thanks for the response.  I'm checking into that book.  Can you give me a few
examples of
what types of environmental changes to suggest?
Excuse my ignorance, when you say practioner...who would that be?  (I am new
to this and trying to do the best I can for my friend's son)

SUBJECT:    private
school/ADA     Date:  97-09-28 11:17:39 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

my teenage son with ADD goes to private school. He has been there 3 years
now.  Prior to this, he went to another private for kids with LD and ADD.
His present school was aware of this when they accepted him.  Now that he is
in high school,  they are requesting additional testing, so he may fall under
the ADA.  They said the testing needs to be done every three years.  Is this
true?  I need to know where to find out this information.  I need to know
what to supply them with without jepordizing his chances in this school by
possibly giving them info that may not be in his best interest.  He is doing
fairly well there, is happier than he has been in any other school, even
though academically his grades aren't great.  I would like for him to stay
there but want to comply with the schools request.  They are new to dealing
with the ADA.  Anyone that could tell me where to find this info would be
appreciated. Thanks

SUBJECT:    Crack babies      Date:  97-09-28 11:56:24 EST
From:  MOcon54008

We are now seeing the influx of drug related learning problems into the
school system. I'm trying to find out if there are medications being used as
the handicaps are similar to many of the ADD and learning disabled students.
In the case of a past history of fetal drug influence, the behaviors seen in
the 8 year old child may be, inability to read, write, etc.  The
hyperactivity, short attention problems are present, as I'm sure, many
processing problems.  Do the medications used for ADD, etc. work on these
children. Can the hyperactivity level be lowered by medication? These are the
answers I'm looking for.  I have two students this year that are 8 years old.
Neither has so far gained any basic skills in reading or math. They do not
know the sound of all of the letters of the alphabet and they do not know
basic math facts such as 4+4 etc. I have to decide can a multisensory
approach in the teaching of reading help them to gain a literate level. Can
the use of medication help them make this possible in their cases. Or should
they be placed in a less academically oriented setting.

SUBJECT:
Re:ADHD/Tourette's & playgro     Date:  97-09-28 19:27:17 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Can you give me a few examples of
what types of environmental changes to suggest?>

By environment I don't mean the air conditioner <grin> I mean adjustments to
the how the playgroud supervision is set up like making sure a teaching is
always near and maybe pre-organizings small group interactions for your
child.  By practitioner I mean any professional expert such as a doctor,
psychiatrist, psychologist, neurologist, social worker, special educator,
etc....AOL looking for a response

SUBJECT:    Re:private school/ADA     Date:  97-09-28 19:41:17 EST
From:  Ratatat

< They said the testing needs to be done every three years.  Is this true?>

In elementary and secondary schools, most will request that evaluations be
repeated every three years.  This is taken from the IDEA (special education
law) as a guideline, though now where within the ADA does it say anything
about a timeline for testing.  I do think that it's wise to consider it
because kids are growing and do change.  Not only that, but the documentation
will be necessary for college.

< I need to know what to supply them with without jepordizing his chances in
this school by possibly giving them info that may not be in his best
interest. >

What kind of information are our worried about them having that might not be
in your son's best interest?  Why kind of testing are they asking for?

If you son is qualified to be in the program (which he is, or he wouldn't
have been accepted), and he is capable of doing the work, which you say he
is, there is nothing they can do if they learn more specificaly about
learning differences your son has.  In fact, with additional information,
they may be able to provide him with accommodations (they are required to by
law) that would help him do better such as quiet study spaces, extended time
testing, copies of the teacher's notes, etc...

What kind of private school is this?  I'm assuming that it's an independent
(non-religious) school if they are talking about ADA.

<They are new to dealing with the ADA.  Anyone that could tell me where to
find this info would be appreciated.>

If this school is new to dealing with the ADA then they are a little behind
the times.  Private schools have been obligated to follow the ADA regulations
under Title III for about 6 years now.  You can tell them that they should
look to Section 504 (another civil rights law) for guidance.  As far as
private schools go the two laws require almost the same thing with the
exception of Section 504 is for public schools and the education is therefore
free.

SUBJECT:    Re:Crack babies      Date:  97-09-28 19:44:51 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Do the medications used for ADD, etc. work on these children. Can the
hyperactivity level be lowered by medication? These are the answers I'm
looking for. >

Given that this group of kids is just now entering upper elementary grades,
and therefore the way their problems effect their learning is new, I don't
think anyone has secure answers to your questions.  Only a pediatric
neurologist, pediatric psychiatrist or developmental pediatrician might have
the best clue.  As a teacher you can only encourge that these children
receive comprehensive evaluations, including medical, but beyond that I would
be reluctant to start suggesting medications to parents.  It's really not the
place of teachers.

SUBJECT:    re: private school/ADA     Date:  97-09-29 18:57:19 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

Ratatat,    Thanks for the info.  Yes, this is an independant school and yes,
they are behind the times.  They are not used to dealing with children with
learning differences and are just now seeing that they need to make
accomodations for the children they accept who need it.  I am only afraid
that giving them too much info may make them wonder if they made a mistake
accepting him and that maybe they cannot accomodate him.. However, so far (3
years now) they have been more than happy to oblige us with our requests for
untimed tests, xtra help, notes home, etc.  Are private schools required to
provide the same things public schools are or can they just say, sorry, we
can't deal with this kid, and tell us to take him somewhere else? That is my
only fear in providing them with additional info.

SUBJECT:    Re:re: private
school/ADA     Date:  97-09-30 07:25:53 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Are private schools required to provide the same things public schools are
or can they just say, sorry, we can't deal with this kid, and tell us to take
him somewhere else? >

     I would contact the Office OF Civil Rights before you precide further to
have your question answered. It would seem to me if they have accepted your
child this far they could be liable and be in violation of federal laws if
they should in the future decided that further accomedations are somthing
they would rather not deal with. It smacks of discrimination, they couldn't
accept a physcially handicapped child and later change their minds do to the
fact that the child must now participate in a class on the secound floor and
they don't have an elevator. The school could require that you accept some of
the financial responsiblity for supplies or equipment needed for the
accomedations.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:re: private school/ADA     Date:  97-09-30 07:54:38 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Are private schools required to provide the same things public schools are
or can they just say, sorry, we can't deal with this kid, and tell us to take
him somewhere else? That is my only fear in providing them with additional
info. >

They are required to provide "reasonable accommodations" that to not alter
the fundamental nature of the curriculum or the criteria for successful
completion of the program.

In this sense "reasonable accommodations" means that they must provide such
things as you have mentioned - extended time on tests, quiet work space,
lecture notes, etc.

A request becomes unreasonable when it causes an undue burden (which is
almost always translated into financial terms), or changes the criteria of
the course.

Providing the above accommodations doesn't cost them a penny, nor does it
effect the curriculum.

Asking that you child have one-on-one tutoring from a special educator every
day after school at the schools expense would be an unreasonable request.
However, asking that you child meeting with his subject teachers each once a
week to review would not.

Asking that the school alter the course requirements for your child.  Let's
say he has severe dyslexia and really can't read efficiently.  If you asked
that a teacher to all of his ready to him, that would be unreasonable.  But,
if you asked that your child be provided with all his books on tape - that
would not be unreasonable.  Ditto, let's say, if the child were blind and
needs all books in Braille or on tape.  They'd have to accommodate.

An example from a private school here who had a student with a physical
disability (same law applies - ADA):  up until middle school all classrooms
were in a single story building.  When she moved to the middle school this
changed.  She could not access the second floor science classes, nor the
language classrooms, etc.  And, the school had no elevator.

Well, installing an elevator would have been an unreasonable accommodations
because of the undue financial burden it would put on the school.

The way the accommodated this child was to have all of her classes taught on
the first floor duriing the class period she was scheduled.  The only
exception was science because it was very lab-based.  That one they video
taped for her and she was able to review the video's later on that day.  I
think at one point toward the end of the year they even figured out how to do
a "live hookup" for her so that she could actually participate in class
somehow.

I know it gets complicated.  Does any of this help?

SUBJECT:    Re:re: private
school/ADA     Date:  97-09-30 07:57:54 EST
From:  Ratatat

<     I would contact the Office OF Civil Rights before you precide further
to have your question answered.>

Actually, the Office for Civil Rights doesn't oversee ADA!  ADA is overseen
by the Deptment of Justice directly.

However, it might be important to note that many private independent schools
are obligated under Section 504 (which IS overseen by OCR) because they
accept federal money somewhere in their program - technology grants, lunch
program money, tuition loan programs, etc.

SUBJECT:    Re: Double Blind Trial     Date:  97-09-30 17:04:17 EST
From:  GailAP

We are going back and forth about this at home.  My 6yo son was dx as gifted
and adhd by a private psychologist.  We are having behavioral issues at
school and some at home.  Our pediatrician has offered to set up a double
blind trial where neither we or the school will know when my son is receiving
a placebo or Ritalin.  Every does a daily evaluation and at the end of the
trial we see how it matches up with medication.  Any thoughts on this?  We
are about 2 weeks away from having our second Management Team meeting to wrap
up a 6 week assessment they have been conducting on my son in regards to
giftedness, etc....Life is a rollercoaster...

SUBJECT:    To Ratatat     Date:  97-09-30 17:34:51 EST
From:  HJSBP

Sorry this is unrelated, but I lost my favorite places folder and cannot get
back to the ADD/ADHD forum.  I know you post answers there and I need to get
back there!  Please e-mail me at hjsbp and let me know where it was!!!
Thanks a bunch!

SUBJECT:    Re: re:private school/ADA     Date:  97-09-30 18:24:07 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

Mars000210 and Ratatat,

Thank you so much for all of your wonderful information.  I feel really
relieved.  All of my reading and research so far has been strictly about ADD
and not these types of school issues, since it hasn't been an issue until
now.  After reading your replies, I don't think it will be an issue either.
I believe the school is doing what they should be and I would not ask them
for unreasonable accomodations.  Thank you so much.  I am so glad I have
found a place to talk, share and get information
Laurie

SUBJECT:    re: double blind trial     Date:  97-09-30 18:28:38 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

I have not had any experience with this type of trial for my child, but I'm
not sure I understand the point. A child can be gifted and ADD.  Why not just
give him the benefit of a trial of Ritalin and let everyone evaluate him to
see if it helps.  The worst it could do is not help and the best would be if
it did.  Is the point to see if behavior problems are due to ADD?  In that
case, what if Ritalin doesn't work?  That doesn't

SUBJECT:    re: double blind
trial cont.     Date:  97-09-30 18:30:21 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

necessarily mean that behavior problems are not due to ADD, maybe just the
Ritalin isn't the right medication.  Maybe I'm missing the point of the
trial, but I'm not sure what the end results would prove.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:
double blind trial co     Date:  97-09-30 22:38:40 EST
From:  CHSMom

I agree with MAMAM040.  Also, does this mean that sometimes your son is
getting Ritalin and sometimes not?  This can wreack havoc on  the poor guy.


SUBJECT:    Re: Double Blind Trial     Date:  97-10-01 08:25:59 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Our pediatrician has offered to set up a double blind trial where neither we
or the school will know when my son is receiving a placebo or Ritalin.  Every
does a daily evaluation and at the end of the trial we see how it matches up
with medication.  Any thoughts on this? >

I think double blind trials can be very useful for people who are leery about
whether or not the medication really makes a difference.  However, I am leery
about using double blind trials to find out whether or not your child might
have ADD.  Is that the purpose?  Medication should never be used for
diagnostic purposes.

That said, Ritalin is very safe, and no harm can come from doing this.

Regarding the behavioral problems - please do not expect medication to "fix"
them.  What medication can do is help the child follow through on their
intentions, allow them to become more "available" to learn, which in turn
gives you opportunities to teach (in baby steps) self-control, limit-setting,
etc.  Medication should only ever be just one piece of a larger, more
comprehensive plan for supporting and "training" out kids.

I'd like to recommend a couple of important books to you as you begin your
adventure as the parent of a child with ADD.

Taking Charge of ADHD by Russell Barkley, Ph.D. - this might well be the best
single resource you could own.  It's for parents and is actually a very
serious guide.  Barkley is the best.

1-2-3 Magic by Thomas Phelan, Ph.D. - this is a simple, easy to use child
management system that really, truly works when used consistently.  You can
get this in either a book form or video (I recommend the video).  Many
schools have adopted this system too.

You can get both of these from the ADD WareHouse Catalog at
1-800-233-9273.

SUBJECT:    Re: Double Blind Trial     Date:  97-10-01 11:38:36 EST
From:  GailAP

Rattatat and others,
   Thanks for the book suggestions.  They are ones I have not read   and  I
thought I had read everything!!
   I should give you more background...My son was dx'd adhd at 4 (almost 5)
and we have attended behavioral management sessions since that time (on and
off as needed).  He has never been on meds.  At the end of the Kindergarten
year it was suggested,  somewhat casually, that my son should go to a
"pre-first" program rather than first because he was not deemed socially
ready.  I have always been painfully aware of my sons behavior in social
situations and at home,  but was also certain that he had no trouble in the
academic area,  and even found Kindergarten rather boring.  The school does
not perform IQ tests until 3rd grade so we had a complete evaluation done
privately.  The evaluation showed him again to be adhd,  but gifted as well
and to have articulation problems.  This information was given to the school
at the end of the school year and we are just now addressing these issues
through an IEP.
   We made the decision to start school again without meds and the only thing
we have on our IEP  for now is speech therapy twice a week.  The school is in
the midst of a six week assessment of my son to see what enrichment should be
offered to him,  but behavior continues to be an issue at school.  I had
wanted to wait and see what life would be like for him if enrichment was part
of his daily routine,  but my gut feeling is that we need to try the meds.
He has good days and bad days,  but his self esteem seems to be suffering.
   We have started back with the psychologist to "fine-tune" our reward
system.  We use poker chips as tokens or rewards for good behavior.  I feel
that we have adequately addressed the behavior management issue.  I just
think I need to know if the meds will help him focus so his work gets
completed.  I guess I am wondering if this is the missing piece that could
help him demonstrate what he is capable of.  What an emotional issue!!   Gail


SUBJECT:    Re: double blind trial     Date:  97-10-01 18:32:34 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

I can empathize with your decision over whether or not to start meds.  We
also, did everything but the meds: therapy, special school, etc.  Behavior
was never an issue, (my son is ADD without the H), but finally about a year
after diagnosis, we started with the Ritalin.  A week later, my son came home
from school ecstatic that when the teacher told the class to write a
sentence, he was able to concentrate long enough to write a paragraph.  By
the end of the year,  he won an award for expressive writing.  I have never
second guessed our decision since, just a matter of adjusting doses, and he
is able to tell us whether or not the adjusting is helpful to him.  Good
Luck

SUBJECT:    Re: Double Blind Trial     Date:  97-10-01 18:42:24 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I just think I need to know if the meds will help him focus so his work
gets completed.  I guess I am wondering if this is the missing piece that
could help him demonstrate what he is capable of.  >

Then, I would suggest you do the double blind trial.  It will answer your
concerns and put your mind at ease.  With my kids I found that medicine was,
in fact, the "missing piece" that helped everything else fall into
place.

SUBJECT:    Re:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-01 18:46:26 EST
From:  LGilb24634

I hope some of you remember some of my postings about my teenage son with ADD
who was put out of school in February in the 8th grade for non-compliant
behavior.  Well as I've said I have fought the system and him tested and they
have placed him into the 9th grade.

We had the 504 meeting to write the plan today.  I could tell these people
have written many 504 plans in the past but I could also tell they don't
really have a clue about ADD.  The group included all of his teachers, the
asst. principal in charge of 504s, the school psychologist, the special ed
teacher, my son, his advocate and me.

He's doing very well so far this year.  His teachers all said he is very
polite and quiet, but that he seems unmotivated.  He's doing all his work,
but not offering anything extra, if you know what I mean.  I know he's glad
to be back in school, but I also know school does not excite him.  He knows
he needs and education and wants to get it over with.  He's already been to
his guid. counc. to see how he can go to night school next semister and
summer school to make up courses in order to graduate early.  He did this on
his own.  The counc. mapped out a plan for him.

Even though we came up with some accommodations I didn't leave the meeting
feeling good about it because I could tell by their comments that they don't
understand ADD.  Whey my advocate brought up his low self esteem and that she
would like the teachers to work on helping him build it up, the only comment
was from the psychologist who told my son the way to build his self esteem is
to make good grades.  She is right but he has had such a bad experience in
school.  As I've said before, they are the one's who had him tested in 1st
grade.  They've known about his ADD all these years and suggested nothing to
me to help him.  No 504s, no IEP.  They just don't get it.  They think his
problem is that he's lazy and hasn't had enough discipline at home.  What can
I do as a parent to educate these people without stepping on their toes?

One other thing.  The study group from his middle school who tested him this
summer suggested he have a tape recorder for lectures.  When we brought that
up in high school today, they said no.  They had to protect the teachers'
privacy.  My advocate asked what would be the difference in her observing his
classes and a tape recorder.  They never answered but explained procedures
for her to follow if she wanted to observe him in class.

SUBJECT:
Re:ADD/ADHD-School Issues co     Date:  97-10-01 22:13:24 EST
From:  Woodslot

Help! Im a Home School teacher of my Daughter that has visual
impairments,learning delay...and possible ADD. I really don't know a lot
about ADD. I have just discovered the possibility. My District ,I feel is
in-experienced in this matter and I was told to find out everything I could
about it. Any info on ADD or help in teaching her would be greatly
appreciated.
 I can be reached through E-Mail at  :   [e-mail]
Thank You

SUBJECT:    Re:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-02 02:07:14 EST
From:  Socadream

My daughter needed a taprecorder in middle school and she had this listed in
her iep.  The teacher wanted her removed the day she showed up with it.  I
hit the roof.  I called sp. ed dir. who said this was a 504 issue, 504
officer said it was a special ed issue.  I called OCR and they said I could
get that teacher fired and the district in big trouble if they didn't
correct.  Needless to say, it was corrected.  I didn't want teacher fired,
just inserviced.  The point is, if he needs a taperecorder and it is listed
(in writting) on his 504 (you should make sure it is, include the suggestions
of that person who agreed with the need) then he gets it, period.  If it
truly is a needed accomadation, it must be on the 504 or iep.  You must
insist!!  Call OCR, sometimes just talking with them and relaying thier
messages to the school makes all the difference and needed changes happen
much quicker than if you file a complaint (which is your option).  This is
called advocating for your child, not as districts like to label parents
"adversarial".  Good luck.  Remind them that taperecorders are used in
college all the time.  You could also ask "Is the teacher afraid of what
would be on the taperecorder?" or you could also request teacher supplied
notes or a studdy buddy who writes their notes on carbon. Your child then
gets a copy--just make sure the other student writes good notes.  This
happens more often than not, unfortunatley.

SUBJECT:    Re:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-02 11:47:15 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I didn't want teacher fired, just inserviced.>

Under section 504 you can request inserving of the students teachers.

SUBJECT:
re:teenage son with ADD     Date:  97-10-02 18:14:37 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

Isn't it just amazing that the people who have such a significant impact on
our childrens lives' , who are "educated" people, just don't GET it????

I honestly believe that if you don't live with ADD, then you just can't
understand it.  There is no one I know that GETS it that doesn't live with
it!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:re:teenage son with ADD     Date:  97-10-03 00:19:18 EST
From:  CHSMom

MAMAMO40-

Bravo!! What you said is absolutely true.  What else gets me is that a lot
(not all, don't want to start a fight) have an "us" & "them" attitude, like
our wanting accomodations for our kids is a personal attack on them.  What
happened to caring about the kids? (sorry, I'm done, lol)

SUBJECT:    RE:  Teenage
Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-03 03:21:48 EST
From:  LGilb24634

MAMAM040--

You're right about those who don't live with ADD not knowing.  I've heard and
read so much lately about parents wanting order in the classroom and getting
those who interupt out of the classroom. My son has rarely caused an
interuption in the classroom, but I know of ADD kids who have.  When I hear
these parents and school administrators talking about getting these kids out
of the classroom and only leaving those in who want to learn, it breaks my
heart.  I think to my self when I hear these remarks that these parents are
so fortunate that they have perfect children who are eager to learn and have
no disabilities.  I wonder if they would say the same thing if their child
had a disability.  I wish my son didn't.  I have six children and he's the
youngest.  I never heard of ADD until my son was diagnosed with it.  I wish
the school had not had to label him with ADD.  I wish for his sake that he
did not have ADD.  But he does.  And I will do everything in my power to help
him.



SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-03 22:44:18 EST
From:  MarRigby

I was always under the impression that it's the child's MD that makes the
final diagnosis of an attention deficit disorder, not the school. The MD may
depend upon the school to do a full psychological and educational evaluation,
but the school does not diagnose ADD.

Also, I am getting a bit weary of a handful of parents who insist that ADD is
a good excuse for not serving a suspension or expulsion. These are the same
parents who do not teach their child to realize that he/she has to take
responsibility for inappropriate behavior.  I am of the opinion that severe
behavior problems may be something apart from the ADD or ADHD, and but both
need to be dealt with through intensive counseling and medication.

Most teachers will be very sympathetic to ADD/HD children when they know that
the parents of these children are doing everything within their power to help
their child, and are supportive of the teacher.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-04 08:21:55 EST
From:  LGilb24634

My son's pediatrician is the one who made the final determination of ADD
after all the testing.  The point I was trying to make was that the school
was the first to indicate he may have ADD, then did nothing to assist him for
all these years.  When I went for conferences, they would tell me about some
of his behaviors in school and ask me what I was going to do about it.  For
instance, he constantly puts his head down on the desk.  This has been going
on since first grade.  I counteracted by having an earlier bedtime and
rewards for no reports of putting his head down.  This never worked because
the teachers would just let him put his head down and not tell me until weeks
had gone by.  I would think everything was going fine and it was not.  A
parent cannot control the child's overall behavior from home.  If the schools
let them get away with or ignore small bad behaviors in grade school, they
develop into bigger ones the older they get.  The schools never mentioned
IEPs or 504s to me in all his years of grade school or middle school.  They
just let him get by with these little behaviors that built up over the years
and which have hurt him in middle school.  I didn't even know about
disability laws until his problems this past year in middle school.  And I
did not get any of my information from the school system.

I agree that ADD cannot be used as an excuse for misbehavior, but I have
learned that schools need to work more closely with ADD children and their
families in order to help these children reach their potential.  My son is
seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist and has been since December.  We
also have strong rules at home with punishments and rewards for behavior.

Also, I basking in a little happiness right now.  My son, who is now in the
9th grade in high school, brought home his first interim report card
yesterday.  The lowest grade was one C+.  The rest were As and Bs.  It was
his very best report card ever.  What made it even better, though, were the
coded remarks by the teachers of cooperative attitude and class
participation.  We praised him highly and especially for the good remarks by
the teachers.  We know we have to stay right on top of this and we intend to.
I also don't expect everything to go smoothly all the time.  He is very
impulsive and sometimes acts without thinking.

Thanks to everyone for any remarks and suggestions sent in response to my
postings.  I can't tell you how much I have appreciated all the information
received here.  It also helps to read experiences of others and know we are
not alone.

SUBJECT:    Re: Double Blind Trial     Date:  97-10-04 08:41:13 EST
From:  PeterCB55

If this is a first time trial, an "eyes" open unblinded trial where everyone
know may be most efficient. Double-blind placebo trials are most usefull IMHO
when there are real questions about confounding factors, depression,
medication effects, teacher and setting effects or very different opinions
about medication usefullness. In either situation, make sure that everyone
doing the observing, has a mechanism for organizing their observations ahead
of time and that specific symptoms of concern are identified and expected
benefits are also identified. Why? well because sometimes the symptoms we
most want to be resolved by medication are the least likely to respond. For
example, medications do not improve organizational problems. It also helps to
have someone go over the connection between observed difficulties and
expected benefits, so as to focus on key concerns. While medications can and
do help many children to function more easily and effectively, careful
assessment of what this medication does or does not do for this particular
child in his particular home and classroom is vital.

Regards

PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Training for helping ADD     Date:  97-10-04 20:09:03 EST
From:  JPETORCH

I found a very helpful homepage for teachers and parents of ADD/Dyslexic
individuals.  It is at http://www.erickson-learning.com.  I hope that you
find it helpful.

Jim

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-06 07:04:59 EST
From:  Meyersons4

<<Also, I basking in a little happiness right now.  My son, who is now in the
9th grade in high school, brought home his first interim report card
yesterday.  The lowest grade was one C+.  The rest were As and Bs.  It was
his very best report card ever.>>

*Congratulations* -- isn't it wonderful to have something to celebrate?!?

Mary

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-07 20:56:10 EST
From:  MarRigby

LGilb24634 :

What great news! And like I said, you are a wonderful example of a parent who
is doing anything and everything possible to help your child and support us,
the teachers! Thank you.

Marilyn

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-09 03:10:03 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I was always under the impression that it's the child's MD that makes the
final diagnosis of an attention deficit disorder, not the school. The MD may
depend upon the school to do a full psychological and educational evaluation,
but the school does not diagnose ADD. >

The evaluation of ADHD almost always requires that a psycho-educational
battery be done as a part of a complete assessment.  A diagnosis of ADHD may
be given by a physician, psychiatrist, psychologist, or even social worker.
It is my personal belief that a physical exam should also be included to rule
out any possible biological explanations for troubling symptoms.  Obviously,
if parents decide to use stimulant medication the diagnosis needs to be
"affirmed" by an M.D. who would be able to prescribe needed medications -
often in concert with a mental health professional.

All that said and done, even with a truly comprehensive evaluation(s) by the
most knowledgeable and skilled practitioners, the school must also conduct
it's own evaluation of the student before they determine if the student is
eligible for accommodations and/or services under either Section 504 or IDEA.

Under Section 504 eligibility the school may only review the student's
current educational program and placement, the evaluative data that has been
made available to them and the student's current level of performance before
making a determination.

Under IDEA they may, or may not, accept the independent evaluation and may,
or may not, choose to conduct additional testing of their own to determin
elibility and need.

In truth, the schools are responsibile for identifying, evaluating and
serving all kids with disabilities under the child find provision, and this
includes ADHD.  Though, obviously, a school doctor would not prescribe
medication, a school psychologist can be able to evaluate and diagnose ADHD.
And, because ADHD can have such a huge impact on learning, it really is the
job of the schools to do this.

That said, too often, schools are presented with evidence that a child has
ADHD and do not provide needed supports even though they have a legal
affirmative obligation to do so.  I wish it weren't so, but more often that
not my experience dictates that the rules and regulations of both 504 and
IDEA are used by the schools to confound and impede a parent of a child with
ADHD trying to get appropriate support for his/her child.

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:
Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-09 03:15:41 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Also, I am getting a bit weary of a handful of parents who insist that ADD
is a good excuse for not serving a suspension or expulsion. These are the
same parents who do not teach their child to realize that he/she has to take
responsibility for inappropriate behavior. >

Just another note on this... I do agree that it's not okay to allow ADHD to
become an excuse for our children.  ADHD is an explanation, not an excuse.
But, because too many times that explanation does not lead to effective
supports in the schools children who by the nature of their disability have
poor self-regulation are left in frustration and often act out - only to get
punished.

A child with ADHD may be suspended for up to 10 school days, just like any
other kid.  But, it's been decided that anything over 10 days is to be
considered a red flag signifying that the child's educational
placement/program needs review.  That's the point of the "stay put"
provision.  It forces the schools to pay attention to the kids who have
problems and are not identified or having their needs met. It's a safety net.
It allows a team, including someone expert on the child's disability, to
review the situation, re-evaluation, etc., to determine if the behavior was
directly related to their disability, poor placment, educational plan, or
not.

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-09 03:17:51 EST
From:  Ratatat

<When I went for conferences, they would tell me about some of his behaviors
in school and ask me what I was going to do about it. >

A school-based problem requires a school-based solution.  Parents should be
part and parcel of helping come up with and supporting solutions - but they
are not responsible for implementing solutions that need action in the school
setting.

SUBJECT:    Re:RE:  Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-09 03:18:35 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Also, I basking in a little happiness right now.  My son, who is now in the
9th grade in high school, brought home his first interim report card
yesterday.  The lowest grade was one C+.  The rest were As and Bs.  It was
his very best report card ever.>

Congratuations!  Wonderul!  Wow.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD-School Issues co     Date:  97-10-09 18:52:48 EST
From:  MaryCT33

You should contact your local chapter of CHADD which is Children (and adults)
with Attention Deficit Disorders.  They do have a Web page I think you could
just type in CHADD or Attention Deficit and they have a section for local
chapters.  They may be able to point out even a State organization for
children with learning disabilties.  These organizations usually have
advocates that can help you with getting school info. Another resource would
be your library.

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-10 07:10:01 EST
From:  Kary1

I haven't read it yet, but saw a book called "You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid
or Crazy? - A Self-Help Book for Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder". I
wonder if your son would be interested in reading parts of this (some of it
goes into adult or on-the-job situations). There was also another one that I
read a few years ago, entitled something like "ADD in High School and
College"(?)

It sounds like he's doing great right now with a difficult situation. Does he
have other interests or activities in which he does well, to help boost his
self esteem?

SUBJECT:    Re:Teenage Son with ADD     Date:  97-10-11 04:18:57 EST
From:  LGilb24634

Thanks for the info on the books.  I will get them.  He is doing well right
now, but I know things can change.  One thing I have decided is that he needs
to read some info on ADD.  He knows he has ADD but he doesn't really
understand what it is.  I mean he knows something about it, but I think if he
did some reading about it, like experiences of others with it and how they've
overcome some of their problems, it might help him.

Yes, he plays association basketball and is an excellent 3 point shooter.
Last year he scored the most points on his team for the season.  In fact, he
was supposed to play on the junior team.  The senior team did not have enough
players so they drafted him up to the seniors.  It's strange, my boss was
telling me recently about a boy on his team who has ADD.  He was talking
about how many technicals this boy has in games and how many times he's been
ejected.  When I stopped and thought about it, my son has never even had a
technical in a game.  When he plays basketball, he's all business and knows
what is expected of him.  He does tend to play around some in practice, as do
others who do not have ADD, but when game time comes, he's all business.  He
also plays the guitar very well.  The low self-esteem he has is built around
school, but, hopefully, if he does well this year, he will make it.

SUBJECT:    Re:
Teenage son with ADD     Date:  97-10-11 13:40:47 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

My teenage son does not have very good grades.  We have had to adjust our
expectations of him to be more realistic in his abilities without using ADD
as an "excuse". He is aware that he must pass his classes and that he is
expected to go to college but we do not place emphasis on specific grades he
must achieve.  In order to boost his self esteem, we have concentrated more
on his strong points, ie: he is a very talented drummer, is involved in Boy
Scouts, is in several "clubs" at school, things that make him feel good about
himself.  As far as him reading up on ADD, we have gone the route of
providing him with information and reading materials.  He is definately not
interested in reading this (one of his weak points), but I have found
conversation in the car  on the way to school or events to be more beneficial
for him . He also talks at school with friends who have ADD.  They compare
doses of Ritalin and he comes home and tells me what doses his friends are
taking, which opens the door for further conversation with him.   Hope this
helps!!

SUBJECT:    Add thesiss     Date:  97-10-12 09:14:29 EST
From:  Shtuss

Hi everyone
   My name is Bracha, and I'm doing my highschool thesiss on Add. If anyone
has information or knows where to get information on Add please contact me at
Shtuss. @ aol.com

SUBJECT:    Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-12 12:13:08 EST
From:  Melism1

PLEASE HELP

I have a 15 yr. old brother who was diag. w/ Dyslexia and ADD in elementary
school.  My parents were divorced when he was a baby and my mom remarried
when he was a toddler.  My real dad has put minimal effort into both of our
lives.  Nathan (my brother) had a lot of problems in middle school.  After I
graduated, my mom and step-dad moved to a different district where he
finished 1 yr. of middle school and is now a sophomore in HS.

His first year in the new district he had a resource teacher that took him
under his wing.  Helped him get on his feet with everything from organization
to social skills.  For the first time he was making the B honor roll... talk
about excitement.  He had a great year.  His first year in HS, his resource
teacher had a whole different viewpoint.  She said he was in HS now and
should be taking all this responsibility on himself.  My mom shouldn't have
to do any of the things she's been doing (ie: driving him to school b/c he
won't ride the bus, waking him up in the morning...)  He was old enough to do
everything himself.  He continually came home saying that everything was
going great, he was getting good grades etc. and we never had any reason to
think any differently.  About 2 months before the end of the school year we
find out that he's been failing all of his classes and causing problems in
the classroom, being disrespectful to the teachers, interrupting other
students etc...  Oh, I could probably count the times he brought homework
home on one hand, he always said he never had any, yet the number of missing
assignments was sky high.  Consequently, he failed two classes.  He was
suppose to make them both up in summer school but decided he only wanted to
do one, which he only passed by the skin of his teeth.

So... We start out this year w/ the attitude of really wanting to be on top
of things.  Two months into the school year, he's failing every single class,
including resource room (which my mom has a pretty big problem with)... He
hasn't brought home any homework, always insisits he doesn't have any (once
again percentage of missed work is pretty high), has an attitude with the
teachers, refuses to get up in the morning, will not ride the bus to school.
There are SO many attitude problems.  If there's something he doesn't want to
do, he's not going to do it and nobody can make him do it.  Two months into
school, he's had more detentions that I can keep track of.  He takes the "I
don't care" attitude pretty frequently.

I am working toward a degree in special ed w/ a focus on LD and Nate and I
have always worked pretty good together.  I've been working in the special
ed. field for over 5 yrs...  My mom hired me to work with him 3 nights a wk.
and keep in contact w/ school etc.  The agreement was, I'd be happy to do it,
I'm scared to death that if this gets any worse he's going to end up dropping
out of school... BUT I want to make sure it's done the right way.

My mom has used minimal discipline with him in the past and I think that the
lacking of is probably the biggest reason he's having the problems he's
having.  He knows he can get away with anything he wants to and there aren't
any consequences.  My mom doesn't understand why he doesn't "get it" and I
feel that it's because no one has given him a reason to "get it".  For
example... yesterday, he was suppose to go to a band performance which was
worth 30 pts. of his grade.  My mom was going out of town and dropped him off
at school, he was insistant that he had a ride to the performance and she
didn't have to worry about it.  A few hours later, she comes home to him out
in the drive way (in my rollerblades which he's repeatedly been told he's not
allowed to use) saying that he didn't find a ride to the performance.  By the
time I got home from work, he had a friend over and they were up in his room
playing video games and putting together a model car.  How is he going to
learn if there are never any consequences for his actions???

PLEASE HELP, melism1

SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-12 14:31:45 EST
From:  Ratatat

Tell your mom to get the following two books and starting getting really
familiar with them.  Not only is his educational program and environment
terrible for a kid with ADHD, but the school is out of compiance with some
federal laws by *not* supporting him in the areas where he is most effected
by having ADHD - self-regulation, organization, follow through, activitation
to tasks, sustaining attention, etc...

Teenagers with ADD by Chris Dendy

CHADD Educators Manual

Both are available from the ADD Ware House Catalog at 1-800-233-9273.

SUBJECT:
Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-12 21:52:39 EST
From:  Melism1

Thanks Ratatat for the reply.. I'll definantly get those books ASAP.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but one of my friends is insistant that the
core of his problems all go back to the lack of discipline at home.  Like I
mentioned earlier, he does whatever he wants and has the "I don't care"
attitude and "you can't make me do anything."   My mom has tried several
different approaches to discipline but the first time he bucks it she decides
it won't work and gives up.   She knows it's getting out of hand but doesn't
know what to do about it.  She takes away his phone and tv priviliges but
feels that there isn't anything else that's impt. to him to "take away."   He
also has the wierd way of saying "thank you" when someone does enforce
something with him.  He tells me he knows he's a pain in the butt and he
knows he can get away with it and he appreciates when someone is tough on him
b/c it's the only way he'll ever learn.  And YES... those exact words come
out of his mouth.

Any thoughts???

Melissa

SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 05:55:38 EST
From:  LGilb24634

You're absolutely right about the discipline.  If you've read any of my
postings about my teenage son with ADD, you'll see what I've had to do to get
the schools to do what they're supposed to.  But, we have also added tougher
discipline.  Some of the things you say your brother does sound like some of
the things my son has done.  My son never had the help from school until this
year when I found out what they are supposed to do for him, but I'm not
letting the ADD be an excuse for misbehavior.  He has to be trained to be
responsible.  He didn't like the stricter discipline when we started (I'm
sure he doesn't love it now.)  But, we know we have to or he's going to end
up dropping out of school and/or getting in trouble.  We also understand that
he can't be the ideal student overnight and that in spite of what we do,
there will be problems in the future.  But so far the stricter discipline has
helped.  We are practicing high praise for good accomplishments, too.

SUBJECT:
Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 08:06:49 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Like I mentioned earlier, he does whatever he wants and has the "I don't
care" attitude and "you can't make me do anything."   My mom has tried
several different approaches to discipline but the first time he bucks it she
decides it won't work and gives up. >

This definitely *contributes* to the problem, however, it does not *cause*
the problem.

<She knows it's getting out of hand but doesn't know what to do about it.
She takes away his phone and tv priviliges but feels that there isn't
anything else that's impt. to him to "take away.">

Believe me, I understand your Mom's utter exhaustion in dealing with the
constant testing that comes with the territory of parenting ADHD teenagers
(I've got two).  But, its a time when they really need to have very CLEAR
knowledge of the expections for them and their limits because not much else
in their life is clear.

Your mom needs to decide which rules are *non-negotiable* based on issues of
health and safety... no driving without meds, no alcohol or other drugs, a
curfew, and some basic civility and decency at home towards her and the
family.  After that, most other rules can be negotiated along with their
consequences.

The consequences need to relate to the incidents - if he's late coming in
from friends, then he gets "cut off" from friends for one day for each 15
minutes late, for example... no phone could be level one; no car could be
level two - depending on how he responds to the consequence.

But, these things can be negotiated... the number of minutes, the
consequence, for example.

Maybe your Mom and brother would agree to see a counselor to help them work
out a "contract?"

I've known families to do this and then have periodic check-in (like weekly
or bi-weekly), and it can make a huge difference.

The teen feels like they've got someone to see their side, as do the parents.
A third-party can be the mediator for working out the rules and consquences.
If everyone has input into the process it tends to be more successful.

SUBJECT:
Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 09:01:53 EST
From:  Meyersons4

I agree with the earlier postings that structure and predictability at home
are *really* important in dealing with an ADD/ADHD teen -- and that "Teenages
with ADD" (Dendy) is an excellent point to start.  One of my biggest
confusions at first was how much of the behavior we were seeing was "typical
teen" stuff and how much was ADD/ADHD stuff.

The other comment that jumped out at me in your first posting was this one:
<<His first year in HS his resource teacher had a whole different viewpoint.
She said he was in HS now and should be taking all this reponsibility on
himself. My mom shouldn't have to do any of the things she's been doing
(i.e., driving him to school b/c he won't ride the bus, waking him up in the
morning...)  He was old enough to do everything himself.>>

If there is *anything* I've learned, it's that an ADD/ADHD kid is not always
"old enough to do" everything his/her peers do at the same age that they do.
We had this argument thrown at us by our daughter's school last year.  She
was in middle school and "old enough" to be responsible for her own stuff,
after all "middle school students should be able to take responsibility for"
organizing their lives.  Sound familiar?  My response was (having had an
older child who was able to do that organization stuff at the "right" age)
that it didn't matter if every other middle school student *could* do that
stuff, my daughter *couldn't* (without assistance).  What every other student
at that age can do is irrelevant.  My daughter *couldn't* and it sounds like
your brother *couldn't*, either.

My non-ADD/ADHD HS son also hates taking the bus.  I drive him back and forth
to school every day and refuse to feel guilty about it.  I actually find that
a few minutes' in the car each way can be precious communicating time.  If he
took the bus, I know he wouldn't tell me the stuff at home that comes out in
the car. It also gives me a chance to wish him a "good day" one last time.
Maybe your brother is the same?  If your Mom WANTS to drive him to school,
she should do so, regardless of what the resource teacher feels.

Re: waking him up in the morning.  I also do that for my kids.  My son is a
night person & with the hormonal changes that come with teenagerhood and the
obscenely early starting time in our district (7:20 am), mornings are
"difficult"<g>.  I don't yell and keep calling:  I wake them both up, give a
second call 15 minutes later and then am out the door promptly at 7:00.  If
they're not ready, I leave without them and they're responsible for walking.
Once they leave home, they'll work out their own strategy for getting up.

It works in our house -- I've plenty of friends that try to make me feel
guilty:  doesn't work.  Again, I stress that I don't mind doing these things.
If your Mom doesn't mind -- it's not the resource teachers' business!  Good
luck -- how fortunate your brother is that you're willling to help him!

Mary

SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 09:07:51 EST
From:  Melism1

LGILB,

Thanks for the reply.  Just out of curiousity... what kinds of things did you
have to do/what do you mean by enforce more strict discipline.  Also, what
did you get the school to do to help???

Melissa

SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 09:10:48 EST
From:  Melism1

Ratatat,

Nate was in counseling for awhile.  They kept experimenting with his meds,
which he now refuses to take altogether.   After a few sessions, he refused
to talk saying that it wasn't going to help him any and if he needed someone
to talk to he'd talk to me.  The psych. got frustrated and told my mom that
there was no point in coming b/c he couldn't help Nathan if Nathan wasn't
going to talk.

Thanks again,

Melissa


SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 09:18:34 EST
From:  Melism1

Mary,

So much of what you said is so true... typical everyday problems that we have
around here.  Not feeling guilty for taking your children to school is
probably a key element there b/c I know that my mother feels very guilty.
Let me toss this one out though... Usual daily routein... She wakes him up,
he rolls over and goes back to sleep, she goes back in and tries to wake him
up, he says he's not going to school, doesn't feel like it.  They end up
arguing back and forth, sometimes he gets up, but not w/out yelling and
hitting the wall etc. about how stupid it is etc.  Other times he refuses to
get up and get going.  In the meantime my mom is laying on the couch
"waiting" for him.  Whenever he decides to get up and around then she'll take
him.  I think he knows that she's down there "waiting" and so it doesn't seem
like a big deal to him.  So what if he sleeps in an extra hour, he still has
mom waiting downstairs... (and these are pretty much his words).  She did
decide to quit excusing him from classes when he pulls this routein.  The
only problem with her leaving is that we live more than 5 miles from the
school and she feels that's too far for him to have to walk.  We have a door
to door public transportation system... I offered that as a suggestion, he'd
have to call and pay for it.  But, knowing him, he'd say oh well... it's too
late to go to school now and continue on with his business.

Any thoughts???

Melissa

SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD teen     Date:  97-10-13 11:29:27 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Nate was in counseling for awhile.><

What I'm talking about is different than generalized couseling and "talk
therapy."  What I'm talking about is a knowledgable professional in ADD
adolescent issues and parent/teen conflict who acts as a sort of "coach" and
mediator, including helping design goals and strategies.

SUBJECT:    Re:Sis of ADHD
teen     Date:  97-10-13 11:33:48 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Let me toss this one out though... Usual daily routein... She wakes him up,
he rolls over and goes back to sleep, she goes back in and tries to wake him
up, he says he's not going to school, doesn't feel like it.  They end up
arguing back and forth, sometimes he gets up, but not w/out yelling and
hitting the wall etc. about how stupid it is etc.  Other times he refuses to
get up and get going.  In the meantime my mom is laying on the couch
"waiting" for him.  Whenever he decides to get up and around then she'll take
him.>

So, there is *no* consequence at all other than engaging your mom in an
arguement.  Remember, negative attention is better than no attention.

He probably does hate school because they are not supporting him and
providing him with the kids of systems he needs to allow him to be
successful.

That said, he needs clearly spelled out limits.  What I do with my daughter,
the "Sleep Queen," is wake her up a few minutes before so she can take her
medicine then set the kitchen timer for another 20 minutes.  When that rings
- that's it.  She decided that she only needed about 15 minutes to get ready.
That's what she gets from the point the timer rings.  If she's not ready
(and, all school things are organized the night before *by her*), then she
can walk, or ride her bike.  With a 40 pound back-pack, that's quite a feat!

She only did it once.

SUBJECT:    Re: sis of ADD teen     Date:  97-10-13 23:03:54 EST
From:  MAMAMO40

Good feedback everyone!  I have problems also with wake up calls with both
kids, one ADD, one not.  With me having to leave for work at the same time,
mornings were becoming impossible. Now they have a wake up call with 15 min.
to get up and get dressed before coming to the kitchen.  Not in the kitchen
on time?  Too bad, no priveleges that evening.  No phone, no TV, no playing,
nothing.  Only happened once to each, now they are at the breakfast table,
sometimes still pulling on their clothes, but they're up.  Hope this
helps.

SUBJECT:    Re: sis of ADD teen     Date:  97-10-14 17:40:50 EST
From:  Kary1

oh, darn, I wrote and got cut off..hope this only shows up once.  Check for
books that discuss "natural consequences". I agree that structure and
consistency is SO important for ADD kids (and nonADD). It actually makes
things easier for them.

Parents need to select "the" battles, and start with only one or two that is
going to be enforced, consistently, before moving on to others. Offer
"choices" - when mine were little and would not listen to directions to pick
up, I'd say "Okay, YOU can pick up the toys, or I can "help" you", said in a
tone and with experience that told them they didn't want my "help", as it
included hand over hand (forcing them to do it by holding their hand until it
was ALL done, even with their protests), or that I would pick it up and
they'd lose the toys for a few days or a week. Your Mom could offer the
choice that he can get himself up, or up with her first attempt, or she can
"help" him further - and bang on a metal trashcan lid in his room until he
gets out of bed the next (and last) time, or use some other obnoxious, yet
effective, method. (Hey, a water spray bottle comes to mind!) Meanwhile, she
can act above board about all of this, saying "I need to find a way to help
you get up, and this is all I could think of." The choice is- you get up the
first time or I have to find some more effective way.

He does need help with school. Any chance of getting the previously involved
teacher to provide input to his current school? The history of grades should
speak to it's effectiveness!

SUBJECT:    phonics program     Date:  97-10-18 00:03:16 EST
From:  Diana0309

Anyone heard of Jeanies Phonics program advertised on TV?  If so, does it
improve decoding and reading fluency skills?

SUBJECT:    OHI ?     Date:  97-10-22 12:34:19 EST
From:  E503

Mu daughter is OHI with a secondary categorization of non-verbal learning
disability.  I have an IEP review tomorrow and I need a question answered
asap.  Am I correct in saying that since her designation is OHI that she DOES
NOT need to be 2 standard deviations from her composite IQ (105) if her
verbal IQ is 119 and her nonverbal IQ is 76????? The place that did her
multifactored eval. says her composite IQ is not important, what is important
is the difference in 2 scores and the school says she is not 2 standard
deviations from 105 to qualify for reading services.  I am hearing that the
school is WRONG in  what they are saying - that  she does qualify because she
is OHI.  PLEASE RESPOND ASAP!!!!  thanks.

SUBJECT:    Re:OHI ?     Date:  97-10-22 14:19:25 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<   I am hearing that the school is WRONG in  what they are saying - that
she does qualify because she is OHI.  PLEASE RESPOND ASAP!!!!  thanks. >

They school is wrong. Call the governors office in your state ask for the
protection and advocacy office ( may also be call special education deptment,
every state has different name.) ASk to speak to the perosn who follow the
504 plans. Tell him your problem ask him how you should handle it with the
school. Tell him from what you have read that she should quialfy.

You can also call the Office of Civil Rights for your area. Again tell them
your problem . Ask for their help.

Both these departments are there to help you. Sort out what quialfies and
what doesn't and to explain the process to you if you ask. So ask. They are
also the people to file a complaint with about noncomplience.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:    Re:OHI ?     Date:  97-10-22 16:00:29 EST
From:  E503

Barb - thanx  for your quick response.  I will call the department of special
ed (I'm in Ohio).  elise

SUBJECT:    Re:OHI ?     Date:  97-10-23 20:19:22 EST
From:  TLVAIL

In my district whenever their is a 20 or more split between the verbal and
non-verbal IQ, we must use the higher when comparing ability and performance
in order to qualify as Learning Disabled.  In addition, there does not have
to be a split at all to qualify for services as OHI- Just a medical condition
resulting in a reduced ability to benefit from their educational
program.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD-School Issues co     Date:  97-10-24 00:19:04 EST
From:  JFisher208

I HAVE AN OVER ACTIVE CHILD WITH ALLERGIES TO MEDS

SUBJECT:    ADHD      Date:  97-10-24 00:24:20 EST
From:  JFisher208


2IF US MOTHERS HAD THE TIME WEWOULD TALK MORE SUPPORT AND LOVE

SUBJECT:    CONNERS
_CPT     Date:  97-10-25 17:01:24 EST
From:  Dovnjake

I need to get a copy of the conners evaluation; is there any place on the
internet where I can find it????

SUBJECT:    WE NEED SUPPORT     Date:  97-10-27 11:26:34 EST
From:  Ratatat

CH.A.D.D. MEMBERS AND PARENTS OF CHILDREN WITH A.D.D.
WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION RELEASES DRAFT REGULATORY LANGUAGE
The U.S. Department of Education has released the draft regulations for
implementation of the new IDEA.  These regulations include language to
clarify eligibility of children with ADD under the Other Health Impaired
(OHI) Category.

The new language regarding OHI eligibility for students with ADD is likely to
be criticized by others.  We need your help to be sure the Department is
flooded with letters of support to counter any criticism and make sure the
language stays in the final regulations.

The Background:  On June 4, 1997, President Clinton signed into law "The
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act Amendments of 1997," (Public Law
105-17).  Known as IDEA 97, the law is a balanced piece of legislation which
was produced after months of negotiation between representatives of the
disability and general education communities and Congressional staff.
CH.A.D.D. was very active in the IDEA reauthorization process.

After the bill was signed into law, the Department of Education was charged
with the job of drafting regulations to implement the new law.  The
regulations provide specific instructions to state and local educational
agencies n how to put the law into practice.  The regulatory process began
with the Department requesting input from the public, including parents,
teachers and organizations about what the regulations should include.
Preliminary input was accepted through the month of July.  The Department
released its draft regulations on October 22, 1997.

Language on ADD:  Language was added to the regulations that clarified that
children with ADD may qualify for special education and related services
under OHI when "the ADD is a chronic or acute health problem that results in
limited alertness, which adversely affects educational performance." (1)  The
draft language also states that children with ADD may also qualify under
other IDEA disability categories if they satisfy the applicable criteria.
During the next three months, the Department will be accepting comments on
the draft regulations.

As mentioned above, it is very important for the Department to hear from
CH.A.D.D. members and others who have children with ADD in the public schools
to ensure that the language remains in the regulations.  Note: (1) Per the
U.S. Department of Education:  "Limited alertness" must be viewed in terms of
its adverse effect on educational performance.   If evaluators determine that
a child's heightened alertness to environmental stimuli results in limited
alertness with respect to educational performance, the "limited alertness"
criterion of the OHI category would be satisfied.

Please use the letter below as a sample and write your own personal letter to
the Department, and see if you can each get at least 5 other people to send
letters.

SAMPLE LETTER
Thomas Irvin, Office of Special Education and Rehabilitation Services
U.S. Department of Education, Room 4507
Mary E. Switzer Building
330 C Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20202
Dear Mr. Irvin,

  As the parent of a child with ADD [and a member of Children and Adults with
Attention Deficit Disorders (CH.A.D.D.)], I want to thank the Department for
its efforts to clarify and affirm eligibility for special education for
children with ADD in the draft IDEA regulations.  It is especially important
to ensure that children can be found eligible under OHI.

  Special education services are so important to (my child/children) with
ADD.  The regulations must make sure that eligibility is not a barrier for my
(child/children) or other children with ADD.

  [If you have had problems with your school district finding your child
eligible for special education, describe how hard this was for you.  If you
know of another family that has had this problem, you may want to add a
sentence about that].

Thank you for addressing this issue in the new regulations.

SUBJECT:    Re:OHI ?     Date:  97-10-27 17:31:23 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Am I correct in saying that since her designation is OHI that she DOES NOT
need to be 2 standard deviations from her composite IQ (105) if her verbal IQ
is 119 and her nonverbal IQ is 76????? >

Yes... under OHI that is correct.  There is no legal basis for requiring a
deviation discrepancy forumula for criteria under OHI.

SUBJECT:    Re:CONNERS _CPT     Date:  97-10-27 17:34:19 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I need to get a copy of the conners evaluation; is there any place on the
internet where I can find it????>
This is an evaluation used by professionals.  Theoretically, only
professionals have access because they are taught how to interpret the data
from it.

SUBJECT:    Re:WE NEED SUPPORT     Date:  97-10-27 18:51:44 EST
From:  MaryCT33

Thanks. I happen to just see some literature today regarding changes in the
law.  I will pouring through it to try and make sense of it. But my
understanding is there are many things that are not clear in there
interpretation of the law which is going to bring about problems.
All parents with children in Special Ed regardless of the reason, be aware
that the new law states any problems/disagreements with the childs
eligibilty, evaluation, or just any dispute MUST be brought up at a PPT
(parent teacher placement team whatever they call them in your state).  If
not and due process or a hearing is held in the future the disputes will not
be allowed.  The law is requiring all districts to send out due process
rights with the new changes to all parents with children in special ed.  Call
your schools if you don't receive them within the next couple of weeks.

SUBJECT:
Re:WE NEED SUPPORT     Date:  97-10-28 06:52:02 EST
From:  Ratatat

<But my understanding is there are many things that are not clear in there
interpretation of the law which is going to bring about problems.  >

The regulations for IDEA 97 are being drafted by the U.S. Department of
Education right now.  These regulations will interpret the law into practical
use.  Until we have the completed regulations, all interpretation is just
speculation.  The regulations are supposed to be finished by the end of this
year.

I just came from the annual CHADD Conference were I attended an all-day legal
institute.  The first draft of the regulations were received by CHADD's
counsel the night before the conference began.  Some of the wording is very,
very clear about the procedures that must be followed to operate within IDEA
97.  Typically, however, some of the wording is ambiguous or in conflict with
some of the wording in the actualy law.  That will hopefully get hammered out
before they are finalized.  Otherwise, the only place that these disputes in
the written law can be worked out is through law suits and court
interpretations.

SUBJECT:    Re:WE NEED SUPPORT     Date:  97-10-28 18:51:21 EST
From:  BigJohnEsq

I have just reviewed the proposed regulations for IDEA-97 that were published
in the Federal Register last week.  Very interesting.  I agree with RaTaTat,
some areas the comments and regs are very clear, others are not.  Hopefully
the comments recieved during the "comment period" will result in some
clarifications.

JFB

SUBJECT:    Re:WE NEED SUPPORT     Date:  97-10-28 23:53:22 EST
From:  PPear31329

I will definetly be sending in a letter to the Dept. Ed.  regarding the
language problems that occure with ADD.  I hope everyone takes the time to do
the same.....

SUBJECT:    Re:WE NEED SUPPORT     Date:  97-11-07 16:12:46 EST
From:  Socadream

thanks for the postings,Ratatat!!!  I handed out copies to all our local
chadd members and will continue to pass the word.  In our district OHI was
seldom used and to get identified the district would instead use the "SED"
lable.  We have gone round'n'round about this, I'm going to encourage
everyone on the nationwide need for this new language!

SUBJECT:    Re:WE NEED
SUPPORT     Date:  97-11-08 06:33:59 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I handed out copies to all our local chadd members and will continue to
pass the word.>

THANK YOU!  This is such a golden opportunity.  Clearly, the U.S. Department
of Education is caught between parents who've been flooding them with this
need since 1990 (which caused the Memo of 1991 to be written), and some
education lobby group that has a lot of political money to spend, IMHO.  The
DOE is very, very well aware of all of the problems many families have been
facing with kids with ADD in the schools.  This new language isn't quite what
we should have, but at least its more than before.  The wording in the notes
under OHI literally reiterates the Memo of 1991.

SUBJECT:    asthma meds and ADHD     Date:  97-11-08 22:47:19 EST
From:  BRI7791

     Has anyone had any experience with asthma medications inducing ADD/ADHD
tpye behavioral charateristics in  children?  My daughter was on abuterol
during her 3-4 year old developmental period, when her social/emotional skill
development was enhancing.  I'm not at all convinced that the behaviors she
exhibits are not the result of learned behaviors due to the medication.  Can
anyone HELP??     Thanks!!!!!!      P.S. My daughter is now 6 yerars old and
in the first grade.

SUBJECT:    Re:asthma meds and ADHD     Date:  97-11-09 08:11:02 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I'm not at all convinced that the behaviors she exhibits are not the result
of learned behaviors due to the medication. >

 My daughter has ADD and asthma. Many children with ADHD also have Asthma.
There is no cause and effect between them or their treatments, though the
medication for asthma can sometimes create problems with the treatment for
ADHD.  The doctors have got to work together with the parents and the school
by observing reactions so that the best treatment regimen can be found.

SUBJECT:
Re:asthma meds and ADHD     Date:  97-11-09 10:57:59 EST
From:  BRI7791

Ratatat,
     Thank you for taking the time to respond !!!!


SUBJECT:    Re:asthma meds and ADHD     Date:  97-11-12 01:18:14 EST
From:  PeterCB55

It is my understanding that albuterol can in some individuals act as
something of a stimulant; however, the effects are likely IMHO to be limited
in time, and unlikely to induce anything like a "learned" behavior that would
carry over in time. In children of very young ages, i.e., 3-6 years
medications of many types that influence vasodilation, heart rate, and CNS
functioning may also as a related but unintended effect influence emotion and
self-regulation, for relatively short periods of time. I have heard of no
comments to date regarding Albuterol. per se, but this is a good question for
your child's pediatrician.

Regards,

PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:asthma meds and ADHD     Date:  97-11-12 08:20:56 EST
From:  SPCHRGM

If you have questions regarding Asthma medicines and ADHD, try some of the
boards related to Asthma(Keyword:PEN). Also, as an adult with asthma, I can
tell you there is nothing more valuable that a godd asthma/allergy
specialist. I wouldn't trade mine for all the money in the world!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:
help; parent with ADD     Date:  97-11-18 23:10:17 EST
From:  Kaseyy

I am working with a 4 year old girl, with serious developmental delays. She
is 4 and functions about at a 2 year old level. My main problem, however, is
how to work with her mom, who is ADD. Her mother repeatedly misses
appointments (she has attended 4 out of 9 scheduled sessions), doesn't follow
through with stuff at home, does not follow through with enrolling the child
in the public school early childhood classes, etc. The mother tells me that
she (the mom) is ADD and thus is unable to regularly remember appointments
and follow through on anything on a regular basis. Although I've had lots of
experience with mental retardation, I don't know that much about ADD. Is it
the case that an adult with ADD is just unable at all to handle situations
like getting a child to an appointment? Should I expect her to be able to do
this? Maybe expecting her to follow any kind of structure at all is
unreasonable on my part. However, it is frustrating because her child is
making limited progress in therapy due to the irregular attendance and the
lack of a regular school program. Help! How can I handle this situation in a
way that will benefit the child? Anyone? kaseyy

SUBJECT:    Re: help; parent with
ADD     Date:  97-11-19 01:05:33 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Is it the case that an adult with ADD is just unable at all to handle
situations like getting a child to an appointment >

It very well could be with a parent with ADD. Could someone call the day
before and the day of the meeting to keep this parent on tract?

Take Care Barb


SUBJECT:    Meds Response     Date:  97-11-20 08:39:04 EST
From:  GypsyinPal

I have just talked to a very learned MD who said that ALL children would
respond to stimulant meds (he was talking specifically about Ritalin) whether
they were ADHD or not
I found this most interesting ?????
Comments?

SUBJECT:    Re:Meds Response     Date:  97-11-20 08:49:39 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I have just talked to a very learned MD who said that ALL children would
respond to stimulant meds (he was talking specifically about Ritalin) whether
they were ADHD or not>

This is true.  However, the difference is that the effect on children with an
underlying neurobiological deficient is more profound and apparent in that it
help be the cornerstone of an overall plan that helps "level the playing
field" for these kids.  For other kids it may "enchance" their performance to
a degree - but never to the degree of suddenly allowing a child who's been
STRUGGLING to suddenly be "availble" long enough to pay attention, follow
through on intentions and plans and work to their potential.

SUBJECT:    ADHD and
testing     Date:  97-11-20 12:22:50 EST
From:  KevisB

My question is long, so my apologies:

My son who is 10 and also has an LD in written expression has recently been
diagnosed, tentatively, with ADHD. He has been seeing the same psychologist
since age 4, who had previously felt his impulsivity and restlessness were
probably due to underlying anxiety. He is a very anxious guy. This past year,
however, in consultation with her colleagues, the psychologist decided that
his symptoms were at least potentially due to ADHD, and after consultation
with us and the psychiatrist, we decided to put him on a trial of imipramine
and see whether it helped. Even with a very small dose, the difference in his
behavior was profound.

The school psychologist and resource specialist have recently finished their
evaluations for his trienniel, and their reports were presented to me, and
his IEP team meeting was last week. He has a good IEP as a result; I felt the
recommendations given were appropriate and he is actually doing very well in
his classroom. However, the school psychologist's report contained several
statements that I believe she was trying to show he should not have a
diagnosis of ADHD, such as "His attentional processes appear well-developed,
as suggested by his exceptional performance on verbal tasks reflecting an
ability to employ a high degree of concentration and comprising a factor
referred to as 'freedom from distractibility' " and "current testing suggests
that his attentional processes are intact, so it is likely that these
behaviors stem from an underlying anxiety and preoccupations rather that
restricted attentional processes." His score on the "freedom from
distractibility" index from the WISC was 116, with his VIQ 133 and PIQ 106.

He was using the medication while tested but his scores are not significantly
different from those he received at age 7. My question is, should I be
concerned at all about these statements, considering that I trust the
professionals who have been working with him for six years? I have already
gone over the report with the school psychologist and given her my comments
verbally, and it is in general a good report as concerns his LD and his need
for remediation in written expression and need for the support of social
skills training. She is revising some of it based on my comments. Since I
have basically received everything I wanted in his IEP, should I spend my
energy obtaining documentation from his private psychologist, psychiatrist,
and developmental pediatrician, or should I leave well enough alone?

Kevis

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-20 16:46:12 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Since I have basically received everything I wanted in his IEP, should I
spend my energy obtaining documentation from his private psychologist,
psychiatrist, and developmental pediatrician, or should I leave well enough
alone?>

I would gather the documentation then hang on to it should you need it.  Best
to be prepared - always.

I take it that the school psychologist did NOT do a full evaluation for ADHD
but rather noted her observations, etc. from the LD and other testing that
was being done.  The Freedom from Distractibility can be used as an
interesting indicator only, but is far from being considered reliable or
valid to determine attentional issues.

Perhaps you should share the school psychologists reports, etc. with your
professionals you've worked with for years and get their take on it?

SUBJECT:
Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-21 00:48:13 EST
From:  PeterCB55

Kevis,

It is hard to imagine that the remarks, or rather "inferences" made by the
school psychologist are other than that, just educated guesses. However, I
too would concur with Ratatat, obtain your own independent data and hold onto
it. It is also worth noting that I have not seen someone attempt to draw
those particular types of inferences, and use the Freedom From
Distractibility factor score to "rule out" the presence of attentional
deficiencies. There is to my knowledge little to support the inference that
is of an empirical nature. High or low scores or in-between do not
necessarily nor reliably correlate with the presence or absence of ADD in
children. Why, children who do well on measures of mental math and immediate
recall for number sequences can have ADD just as surely as can children
children who do poorly on these measures. What makes them interesting is the
presence of other data, suggesting that these findings are supported by
similar scores and performance in the real world. In this case, you are the
recipient of "interesting" information which is of debatable value. ADD in
children may or may not be reflected in vocabulary scores, in specific and in
general. Typically, children with reasonably strong intellectual abilities
with ADD will have very well developed verbal reasoning abilities, with
selective weaknesses on measures sensitive to attention deployment. Hence the
proposition that high scores on measures of verbal reasoning argues against
the presence of impaired attention deployment, is likely of limited value
beyond the fact that it represents the personal opinion of the writer.

PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-21 12:53:57 EST
From:  KevisB

Peter said<< I have not seen someone attempt to draw those particular types
of inferences, and use the Freedom From Distractibility factor score to "rule
out" the presence of attentional deficiencies.>>
Thanks, Peter and Ratatat, for your responses. I actually spent quite a bit
of time this summer reading scientific literature on my own, and I was pretty
sure that somewhere in there was something that said that this index has
little correlation with ADHD. The school psychologist also recommended he be
discontinued from RSP, which I argued against successfully. Since he has an
IEP, we have never brought up a 504 plan. Do you think her inferences might
be attempts to argue, in advance, against a 504 plan? In second grade, when
we had not considered ADHD, the (then) school psychologist made no mention of
"attentional factors" in her report. This time, they knew he was being
treated for it.

I already have an appointment scheduled with the psychiatrist and
psychologist so I will get their comments. Thanks again, Kevis

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD
and testing     Date:  97-11-21 17:45:02 EST
From:  R u Niz

I'm glad to see this discussion about the relationship between the Freedom
from Distractibility Index and ADD.  There have been several instances where
our school psychologist has used this same score index on the WISC to claim
that there is little evidence of ADD.  Our psychologist generally writes a
very good report, but I have always wondered about this.  Perhaps this is a
common problem?

SUBJECT:    Ridalin     Date:  97-11-21 22:16:50 EST
From:  LeftyCMG

Hello, I'm a speech therapist working in a PDD class of 3-5 year olds.  A
parent approached me recently with questions about her daughter's
difficulties attending, etc.  Her daughter is 4 years old and is extremely
distractable even in a discrete trial classroom of 5 students.  She is trying
to decide whether to put her child on Ridalin.  I told her that I would
research the current literature and get back to her with it.  Where's the
best place to find it on the net?  Any help would be greatly appreciated

SUBJECT:
Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-22 02:10:49 EST
From:  CHSMom

School psychologists don't come up with the language in their reports
describing the results of testing and their observations on their own - there
are very specific guidelines that they must follow, written by the publishers
of the tests. If you are interested, college libraries have the books
containing this information.


SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-22 09:04:23 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Since he has an IEP, we have never brought up a 504 plan. Do you think her
inferences might be attempts to argue, in advance, against a 504 plan? >

If you have an IEP then your child is covered under IDEA which also carries
the same protections as 504.  If you want to add some classroom
accommodations, you do so under and IEP/IDEA in the modifications/adjustments
section - or, just add a page to cover the time he's in the regular education
classroom and needs them.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-22 09:07:06 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I'm glad to see this discussion about the relationship between the Freedom
from Distractibility Index and ADD.  >

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding and misuse of the Freedom from
Distractibility index.  The idea that this index can confirm (or not) the
existence of ADHD has NO empirical support.  My understanding is that it's
simply a bit of information that can be helpful (sometimes) when added to the
big picture.  But its a mere grain of sand compared to all the other data
that must be gathered in order to provide a solid differential diagnosis of a
student with attentional problems.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ridalin     Date:  97-11-22 09:09:53 EST
From:  Ratatat

<She is trying to decide whether to put her child on Ridalin.  I told her
that I would research the current literature and get back to her with it.
Where's the best place to find it on the net?>

The internet can be a problematic place to do research because anyone can
publish anything and create a web site that look authoritative.  Perhaps this
parent should make an appointment with a developmental pediatrician.  This is
a medical decision and requires a global review of the child before medical
decisions are made.

SUBJECT:    Re: help; parent with ADD     Date:  97-11-24 20:55:41 EST
From:  TLVAIL

I'm an adult with ADD and I while it might explain some of my behaviors, I
would not use it as an excuse, especially for something as important as
appointments for my child!!  Encourage her to keep a calendar with her at all
times.  Have her write down the appointments and a list of "to do" things
while you are with her.  I'm sure you have explained the importance of
attending the appointments but maybe highlight the critical things in red.
Help her get started on adapting to her ADD rather than using it as an
excuse.

SUBJECT:    Re:Meds Response     Date:  97-11-24 20:57:33 EST
From:  TLVAIL

Bull!!  In fact, many children with ADD don't respond well to Ritalin.  It
put my son to sleep!!  We are all different and different medications affect
us differently.  I don't think a positive response to meds is a good way to
diagnose ADD but a negative response doesn't rule it out either.

SUBJECT:
Dyslexia     Date:  97-11-24 22:30:18 EST
From:  CALLCHRSTA

Hello everyone;
Desperately need help in finding special educators for college student with
Dyslexia. Don't know where or who to contact. Can anyone help me? If so,
please contact me at: [e-mail]. Thanks


SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and testing     Date:  97-11-25 14:38:30 EST
From:  KevisB

<<If you have an IEP then your child is covered under IDEA which also carries
the same protections as 504.  If you want to add some classroom
accommodations, you do so under and IEP/IDEA in the modifications/adjustments
section >>
Yes, I know about the modifications section, which he does have. The point
is, the school psychologist's recommendation was to discontinue him from
special ed and an IEP. Had we been unable to successfully counter her
recommendation, we would have asked for a 504 plan. Hope that clarifies.
Kevis

SUBJECT:    Re:Dyslexia     Date:  97-11-26 10:07:20 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Desperately need help in finding special educators for college student with
Dyslexia. Don't know where or who to contact. Can anyone help me?>

The student's college should have an office that exists soley to assist
students with disabilities - including learning disabilities.  Through this
office you may well find a tutor skilled in helping older students with
reading difficulties.

SUBJECT:    Re:Psychotropic meds for ADH     Date:  97-11-26 17:15:35 EST
From:  A9143

Although my 9-year-old son was diagnosed ADHD in kindergarten, I only learned
of it last spring.  I was very upset to find out so long after his diagnosis.
A lot of tears would have been left unshed had I been told when he was
diagnosed.
My problem now is the stigma that comes with his being medicated with
Ritalin.  My family thinks it's terrible that I let them "dope him up."  Does
anyone have an idea of how to ease my family's concerns?  I'd appreciate any
ideas.

SUBJECT:    Re:Psychotropic meds for ADH     Date:  97-11-26 19:58:13 EST
From:  Ratatat

<My problem now is the stigma that comes with his being medicated with
Ritalin.  My family thinks it's terrible that I let them "dope him up."  Does
anyone have an idea of how to ease my family's concerns?  I'd appreciate any
ideas.>

Go to the On Line Psych area (Keyword OLP) and check out the ADD Forum.
There are a number of short and acurate articles are a variety of aspects of
ADD and its management.  You could print them out and when you get a
"comment" for some well-meaning family member or friend, say nothing - just
hand them a copy of an pertinent article.

I'm curious...how is that your child was diagnosed with ADHD and no one told
your for almost four years?  Who did the evaluation and diagnosis?

SUBJECT:
Re:Psychotropic meds for ADH     Date:  97-11-27 10:23:11 EST
From:  PeterCB55

While you may not be able to ease someone else's concerns regarding the
potential "stigma" related to doping your child up with "medications," I can
suggest that there is a wealth of helpful and hopeful information out there
for you, and possibly others. Most bookstores are now carrying titles by a
number of writers on the subject. With specific regard to "medications" I
might offer these titles, and others who read this board might also wish to
add their own to the note.
"Beyond Ritalin"  (note: despite the insufferably "trendy" and possibly
misleading title, this book
is well written, even handed, thorough and informative).
"Teenagers with ADHD" by. Chris Dendy
"Why won't my Child Pay Attention" by. Goldstein and Goldstein
"Driven to Distraction" by Hallowell and Ratey

PeterCB55